Qt/tra, how does identity form?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

There’s nothing baseless about this. “You should go to male prisons and have to use male facilities” if enacted as a policy would lead to trans women being harmed. You can’t possibly deny that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I and many others on the GC side have said we are for third spaces, such as separate prison wings for TW in the male estate or separate facilities entirely, and for creating additional options to supplement the single-sex restrooms, change rooms, shelters, rape refuges, hospital wards, etc that already exist. But you say nope, that's not good enough - you insist males who identify as trans must be allowed into all/any previously-female spaces. That's the only option you find acceptable.

Your "solution" to the problem of male-on-male violence is to expose all girls and women to more male violence, voyeurism, harassment, menacing and abuse than we already face - and to rob us of any refuge from males ever - by making previously female-only spaces mixed sex. You seem well aware that this won't actually make the males you supposedly care about any safer, nor will it provide them with the "gender affirmation" so many seek. But that seems fine by you because the "solution" you propose would cause girls and women enormous harm - and harm to the members of the sex say you wish were and you claim to "identify as" seems to be the ultimate aim of trans activists.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I’ve said repeatedly I prefer third spaces so please don’t play that game. I don’t actually like making people uncomfortable.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I’ve said repeatedly I prefer third spaces so please don’t play that game.

Within moments of writing that, you also wrote this:

Third spaces or women’s spaces are the only way that we can be safe. And we can’t engineer third spaces. That change can’t come from us.

Which means that as much as you give lip service to preferring third spaces, you say they are not really a possibility because for some reason you and other TW are incapable of making third spaces happen. And that, in turn, means the only option you see as feasible is for males to use the spaces meant for girls and women that women fought hard for and in many cases actually built.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

They’re not a possibility that we can engineer. They can’t come from us. Not that they can’t exist.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Again, why can't they come from you? Why so passive and lazy? Could it be that you actually prefer to sit around complaining about how rough you supposedly have it and blaming women for all your problems than getting off your arses and making positive change in the world?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

Because we are a tiny, largely hated, portion of the population that is definitionally not necessary to society. We don’t have power for change.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

How did you all end up with all the changes forced on the rest of us so far?

How did you all end up with people getting fired for saying sex is real? With feminine hygiene products not being referred to as feminine hygiene (and all the other language bullshit)? How did you all get access to female sports and other specifically female things? How did you get the right to lie on legal documents?

I just feel like your community got an awful lot of change in other areas… odd that the thing you insist you can’t get involves women being able to have their own spaces again…

Sorry. Didn’t mean to interrupt.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Because gays and lesbians pushed for it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

And why would gays and lesbians not push for you to have third spaces if you wanted?

They don’t need any of the other stuff I listed- that’s all for your community. Why would they leave you hanging with this one thing?

There’s your community that’s powerful enough to help you get the change you really want right there.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Even when we say that conditions in male prisons and other male spaces should be improved so that ALL males are safe You have a problem with being included in all males. Unless we sacrifice our spaces for you you won’t be satisfied.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

It’s impossible for trans women to be safe in men’s spaces. They can’t be improved to make trans women safe. It can’t be done.

Third spaces or women’s spaces are the only way that we can be safe. And we can’t engineer third spaces. That change can’t come from us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Then maybe stop shitting on women and respect women and our sex based rights, language, and even category and I bet you’d have a hell of a lot more allies willing to help you get those third spaces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

As long as we pretended we aren’t who we are and abandon all pride you might help us. How magnanimous.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You wouldn’t be pretending you aren’t who you are. I never said not to call yourself a transwoman. There’s clearly a difference (well… thousands of differences) between women and transwomen. Im saying as long as TW can respect those differences, they’d likely gain more support and actually have a shot at those third spaces. But go ahead and keep disrespecting women and ignoring what we say. You’re support will continue to drop and we’ll get our spaces back eventually and I guess tw will be SOL. And it will be their own faults.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I suspect we are.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

And if you are it’s not the fault of women so why do you keep responding as if we are responsible for finding solutions to your issues?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Because you are the ones arguing for policies that harm us. You are pushing for change, you own the result.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Women saying "no" to you really sticks in your craw, doesn't it? Seems TW never anticipated getting any pushback whatsoever when you decided to start invading our spaces, claiming our words, throwing your weight around, bossing us, trying to erase us, removing our rights, putting us and girls at risk and using a steady stream of emotional blackmail, forced teaming, accusations of "harm," playing on our sympathies and other tactics straight out of the Big Book of Coercive Control in the effort to colonize us and our spaces. It clearly pisses you off no end that uppity women have dared to stand up for ourselves. Tough shit.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And when you took female spaces for yourself you harmed females… so what’s your point?

Im fine with owning the result. What Im saying is if the result is you can’t enter spaces not meant for you, oh well. That’s not the same as advocating against you. All that is is accepting that it means you can’t access my spaces. Whatever that means for you has nothing to do with women. It is not our responsibility in any way.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You weren't the ones who invades women's spaces. You started this, not us.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Third spaces or women’s spaces are the only way that we can be safe. And we can’t engineer third spaces. That change can’t come from us.

Why can't that change come from you? What's preventing you and other TW from being agents of change and advocates on your own behalf? Women for generations had to fight for our rights and our spaces, and we had to build many of the the facilities TW and other males want in on now like rape refuges and DV shelters from the ground up with our own money, time and labor that we donated. Black people had to organize, campaign and demonstrate for their rights. So did people with all sorts of disabilities. Gay men during the AIDS crisis had to create organizations to provide for their health care and to lobby for the protections they needed.

What's wrong with you and other TW that other people have to do all the campaigning and hard work for you? Why is your group so exceptional and special and highfalutin that others must do the hard work for you and hand you the gains you seek on a proverbial silver platter already signed, sealed and delivered and tied in a fancy bow?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Numbers, resources, public opinion, the fact that any such movement would be used to further marginalize us as evidence we aren’t really women. Take your pick.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How exactly do you expect anyone to be able to advocate for third spaces for trans people if you can’t accept that you aren’t really women?

What basis would we have to advocate for those spaces? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t push the idea that you’re a woman and then pretend you’d be content with third spaces for trans people. Those third spaces would come specifically because you aren’t women. What argument is there to make in favor of third spaces if TWAW?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s still coming from you. You demand us out of women’s spaces. We can’t be in men’s spaces. So you want third spaces to get us away from you without undue harm. How isn’t that a platform to take?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What does this have to do with what I asked you here? I asked how anyone is supposed to advocate for third spaces for trans people if TWAW. Are you going to answer that?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I gave you a path that doesn’t depend on trans women not being women right there.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What reason would we have to explain wanting to get away from tw other than them not being women?

That’s exactly why we want to get away from… that’s the whole point of this thread… what????

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh poor you. The TRA movement is one of the most well-funded and powerful "civil rights" movements in history. It's an astroturf movement pretending to be grass roots. And it's accomplished huge strides by stealth in a very short time. See the Denton's report. That the trans movement is a top-down one run by powerful men for the benefit of powerful men was the point that Dave Chapelle made that got the mob so riled up against him.

TW have got the entire establishment on your side. Silicon Valley and Big Tech, Hollywood, all the mainstream media, The White House, half the US state legislatures, Downing Street (see the Times of London today), Holyrood, the federal and provincial governments of Canada, the USA's Democratic Party, Big Pharma, the medical industry, UK Labour and the Lib Dems, the SNP, GLAAD, the AMA, the APA, NOW, Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, Amnesty International, the IOC, NCAA, the UN, UN Women, all the teachers unions, BLM, every major foundation, all of higher education... Prominent TW include former military men, leaders in tech and business, luminaries in the publishing world, captains of industry, heirs to great fortunes, celebrities, and many persons with dodgy pasts who've been catapulted to positions of power, influence and unassailability by declaring their identities as TW...

Previously on this thread where you showed you know zilch about the history of apartheid in South Africa, I recommended some films about the persons who brought down apartheid and the strategies, tactics and messaging they used to do so. Films that show their remarkable tenacity, bravery and political smarts. You really could benefit by learning of what they were up against and what they achieved. Even someone as full of self-pity as you can't possibly think that men who wish they were women in Western democracies in 2021 are more marginalized and have it worse than black people did in South Africa (and Namibia) during apartheid. Then again, maybe that's exactly what you'll claim.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

The TRA movement is one of the most well-funded and powerful "civil rights" movements in history.

No it isn’t. Trans people have as a group essentially no resources. Dedicated trans resources (as opposed to collective lgbt resources) basically don’t exist. You’ve rolled into full secret government levels of conspiracy theory.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Idk why I can’t copy and paste links but literally on the GLAAD site they have a page that’s just a long list of trans specific resources as well as trans specific branches of lgbt resources but sure. Conspiracy theory.