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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

So a persons inherent sexuality could be a bigoted belief?

I must disagree with saying it’s bigoted to care about sex when discussing sexuality. Bigotry is not anything that hurts your feelings.

Would you say it’s acceptable and fine for everyone to never question their sexuality and exclude whoever? Or should sexuality only be analysed if it’s called bigoted by the person excluded from it?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

So a persons inherent sexuality could be a bigoted belief?

No, but their feelings could indicate the presence of a bigoted belief. As I said it’s possible to simply not be attracted to trans people without having a bigoted basis.

Would you say it’s acceptable and fine for everyone to never question their sexuality and exclude whoever?

Sure. You don’t have to do anything.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Then what’s the purpose of asking someone to question their sexuality?

They don’t have to, they don’t need to change it, but if questioned they should assess their inherent attractions for bigotry…just to know if their unchangeable attractions are bigoted or not?

Seems like inviting someone to question their sexuality is a very comfy cover for implying all sorts of homophobia like their sexuality being bigoted, without having to actually make any accusations, nearly avoiding any responsibility for the suggestion.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Then what’s the purpose of asking someone to question their sexuality?

To encourage them to understand their beliefs and motives.

just to know if their unchangeable attractions are bigoted or not

Again it’s not the attractions that are biggoted, but they can indicate underlying bigoted beliefs. The attractions aren’t the point.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

To encourage them to understand their beliefs and motives.

The belief and motive, in this case, is "anyone who was born with a penis is not someone I want to date".

They are not refusing to date males who identify as women because "ew, trans are gross!", they are refusing to date males regardless of their "identification" because they are not interested in dating males.

It' s not a belief or bigotry to recognize that males who identify as women are males anymore than it' s a belief or bigotry to know that a redhair who dyes their hair black is a redhead with dyed black hair.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The belief and motive, in this case, is "anyone who was born with a penis is not someone I want to date".

You are assigning specific motives to hypothetical people, but fine let’s examine a hypothetical.

If they think “I don’t want to sleep with someone born with a penis” but also thinks “trans women are women” then that’s not even bigoted, which has been my whole point. You can not include trans women without have a bigoted base belief. What’s hard to understand about that?

As to the rest we are males, just not men.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

As to the rest we are males, just not men.

Which is why I used "males", because I know how much you like your semantic games.

Homosexuality is about sex, male/female. Lesbians are homosexual females, which means that they do not want to date males. So whether they think males who identify as women are women or not is completely irrelevant, because the issue is not their identity or their womanhood, it' s their sex.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If they don’t think trans women are men then the underlying belief isn’t an issue and the conversation ends. What’s so hard to understand about that?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What' s so hard to understand in "who I decide to fuck is not your business"?

My issue with this is that there are people who think it' s their responsibility and duty to tell other people to "rethink" the reasons why they don' t want to fuck someone. It' s none of their business who a lesbian spreads her legs for. It' s not a fundamentalist Christian' s when they think that the moral thing to do is to suppress homosexual urges for the greater good, and it' s not a TRA' s when they think that the moral thing to do is to force yourself to believe something you don' t believe in (and consequently sexually behave accordingly) for the greater good.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What' s so hard to understand in "who I decide to fuck is not your business"?

Nothing. No one said it was. I literally don’t care who you fuck. I don’t even care why. The point isn’t interrogation, it’s asking people to examine themselves to see if they have bigoted beliefs they may not be aware of. You know you don’t like trans women and don’t respect our identities. What would be the point of analyzing your beliefs?

The point has never been who you date or getting you to date anyone else. It’s an analytical question to encourage people to understand their own beliefs. It’s not about who you date, it’s why.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

The attractions are exactly the point.

So she’s a bigot because she doesn’t believe the transwoman is a woman?
Her sexuality automatically excludes any and all males and this doesn’t make her a bigot, just the underlying belief that men are men?

So homosexuality is bigoted, basically?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You are just ignoring me now.

The attraction isn’t bigoted. Homosexuality isn’t bigoted. The idea that trans women are men is.

Noone is saying that you have to date trans women or that you need to be attracted to all women. Just that thinking trans women are men is a transphobic belief.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because the transwoman has a penis and male features is not bigotry, and a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because she says the transwoman is a man is a bigot?

What’s the difference exactly? Semantics aside it’s the same thing.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

So a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because the transwoman has a penis and male features is not bigotry, and a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because she says the transwoman is a man is a bigot?

Precisely.

What’s the difference exactly? Semantics aside it’s the same thing.

They aren’t the same thing. We aren’t men. Lumping us in with men is the basis for every argument against our protections and the root of the harms that get done to us. Personal insults aside, “trans women = men” is the root of everything that gets done to us. It’s bedrock for anti trans bigotry.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’ so homophobes and men who feel tricked by non disclosing transwomen are the ones harming them. Not anyone who comprehends sex and doesn’t follow gender dogma.

Ok so now what justifies a tra asking anybody to analyse their sexuality for alleged bigotry? What is the goal of tra is asking or expecting people to examine their sexuality for why it excludes who it excludes? Who benefits from this analysis?

Surely it’s not just to say ‘so you’re a bigot but that’s fine sweaty’ despite your claims that it’s purely an intellectual exercise.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’ so homophobes and men who feel tricked by non disclosing transwomen are the ones harming them. Not anyone who comprehends sex and doesn’t follow gender dogma.

I don't think this is true. Only a small minority of transwomen are sexually attracted to other males. And only a tiny proportion of those who are attracted to other males have any chance of going stealth because most don't "pass." Most males who have sex with transwomen know full well ahead of time that these persons are male.

When transwomen suffer physical and emotional harm it's almost always at the hands of others of their own sex and it most often occurs in the context of ongoing and mutual domestic violence and emotional abuse in relationships with lovers, roommates, male spouses, friends - in other words, with close intimates who know the transwomen well and presumably have no problem with them being trans. Or the physical and psychological abuse occurs in relationships connected to some other kind of illegal activity, such as drug dealing, criminal enterprise (gang muggings, theft, fraud schemes, etc) and sex work.

Whilst some transwomen who do "sex work" do get physically assaulted by johns, those johns are rarely strangers. And transwomen "sex workers" who suffer physical violence and verbal abuse often do so in altercations with other transwomen fighting over turf, a man, money, drugs, stolen items, insults, etc.

Sometimes the lovers, roommates, male spouses, friends, etc who cause emotional and physical harm to transwomen are trans themselves too. The last transwoman known to have died of homicide in the UK - which IIRC was in 2017 or 2018 - was killed by another transwoman.

There's always been a lot of infighting, jealousy, envy, covetousness and temper tantrumming amongst transwomen who hang out together such as those who are in the ballroom scene and live together in group "houses" or in the old-style transvestite gangs of yesteryear - and this has always resulted in a fair bit of slapping, punching, hair pulling, wig snatching, kicking, biting, stomping, knifing and so on.

Sadly, a lot of males who identify as trans are rageholics with poor or no impulse control liable to fly off the handle and go into violent attack mode at the slightest provocation - and they tend to hang out with and have intimate relationships with other males like themselves. These persons are very quick to take offense, and once they take offense they tend to get very angry, going from zero to 1000 on the rage scale in a flash. Lashing out in violence is "second nature" to many such persons, just as it is to a lot of males who don't identify as trans.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

The belief “trans women are just extra extra gay men” is still predicated on “trans women are men”, the exact belief you loudly evangelize.

Ok so now what justifies a tra asking anybody to analyse their sexuality for alleged bigotry? What is the goal of tra is asking or expecting people to examine their sexuality for why it excludes who it excludes? Who benefits from this analysis?

In theory it’s to help people with transphobic beliefs who don’t want to be transphobic to analyze their underlying beliefs and make them align with their wish to not be transphobic. I would argue society as a whole benefits from a reduction in bigotry against the marginalized but I reckon you would disagree.