Tra/qt how is ‘examine your genital preference’ not homosexual conversion therapy?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Then what’s the purpose of asking someone to question their sexuality?

To encourage them to understand their beliefs and motives.

just to know if their unchangeable attractions are bigoted or not

Again it’s not the attractions that are biggoted, but they can indicate underlying bigoted beliefs. The attractions aren’t the point.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

To encourage them to understand their beliefs and motives.

The belief and motive, in this case, is "anyone who was born with a penis is not someone I want to date".

They are not refusing to date males who identify as women because "ew, trans are gross!", they are refusing to date males regardless of their "identification" because they are not interested in dating males.

It' s not a belief or bigotry to recognize that males who identify as women are males anymore than it' s a belief or bigotry to know that a redhair who dyes their hair black is a redhead with dyed black hair.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The belief and motive, in this case, is "anyone who was born with a penis is not someone I want to date".

You are assigning specific motives to hypothetical people, but fine let’s examine a hypothetical.

If they think “I don’t want to sleep with someone born with a penis” but also thinks “trans women are women” then that’s not even bigoted, which has been my whole point. You can not include trans women without have a bigoted base belief. What’s hard to understand about that?

As to the rest we are males, just not men.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

As to the rest we are males, just not men.

Which is why I used "males", because I know how much you like your semantic games.

Homosexuality is about sex, male/female. Lesbians are homosexual females, which means that they do not want to date males. So whether they think males who identify as women are women or not is completely irrelevant, because the issue is not their identity or their womanhood, it' s their sex.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If they don’t think trans women are men then the underlying belief isn’t an issue and the conversation ends. What’s so hard to understand about that?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What' s so hard to understand in "who I decide to fuck is not your business"?

My issue with this is that there are people who think it' s their responsibility and duty to tell other people to "rethink" the reasons why they don' t want to fuck someone. It' s none of their business who a lesbian spreads her legs for. It' s not a fundamentalist Christian' s when they think that the moral thing to do is to suppress homosexual urges for the greater good, and it' s not a TRA' s when they think that the moral thing to do is to force yourself to believe something you don' t believe in (and consequently sexually behave accordingly) for the greater good.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What' s so hard to understand in "who I decide to fuck is not your business"?

Nothing. No one said it was. I literally don’t care who you fuck. I don’t even care why. The point isn’t interrogation, it’s asking people to examine themselves to see if they have bigoted beliefs they may not be aware of. You know you don’t like trans women and don’t respect our identities. What would be the point of analyzing your beliefs?

The point has never been who you date or getting you to date anyone else. It’s an analytical question to encourage people to understand their own beliefs. It’s not about who you date, it’s why.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nothing. No one said it was.

Yeah, that' s why so many of these TRAs are saying what they are saying, because they agree that it' s none of their business who lesbians date. 🙄

What would be the point of analyzing your beliefs?

I am not a lesbian, my dating choices are not the ones who are being discussed.

It’s not about who you date, it’s why.

Again, NOBODY SHOULD GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANY OTHER PERSON' S DATING CHOICES: you said you understand, but you clearly keep whining that everyone should ponder about it.

IT' S NONE OF ANYONE' S BUSINESS!

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then don’t think about it. Nobody is making you do anything. And where am I whining exactly? This isn’t even about me. I don’t date anymore.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

The attractions are exactly the point.

So she’s a bigot because she doesn’t believe the transwoman is a woman?
Her sexuality automatically excludes any and all males and this doesn’t make her a bigot, just the underlying belief that men are men?

So homosexuality is bigoted, basically?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You are just ignoring me now.

The attraction isn’t bigoted. Homosexuality isn’t bigoted. The idea that trans women are men is.

Noone is saying that you have to date trans women or that you need to be attracted to all women. Just that thinking trans women are men is a transphobic belief.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because the transwoman has a penis and male features is not bigotry, and a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because she says the transwoman is a man is a bigot?

What’s the difference exactly? Semantics aside it’s the same thing.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

So a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because the transwoman has a penis and male features is not bigotry, and a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because she says the transwoman is a man is a bigot?

Precisely.

What’s the difference exactly? Semantics aside it’s the same thing.

They aren’t the same thing. We aren’t men. Lumping us in with men is the basis for every argument against our protections and the root of the harms that get done to us. Personal insults aside, “trans women = men” is the root of everything that gets done to us. It’s bedrock for anti trans bigotry.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’ so homophobes and men who feel tricked by non disclosing transwomen are the ones harming them. Not anyone who comprehends sex and doesn’t follow gender dogma.

Ok so now what justifies a tra asking anybody to analyse their sexuality for alleged bigotry? What is the goal of tra is asking or expecting people to examine their sexuality for why it excludes who it excludes? Who benefits from this analysis?

Surely it’s not just to say ‘so you’re a bigot but that’s fine sweaty’ despite your claims that it’s purely an intellectual exercise.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’ so homophobes and men who feel tricked by non disclosing transwomen are the ones harming them. Not anyone who comprehends sex and doesn’t follow gender dogma.

I don't think this is true. Only a small minority of transwomen are sexually attracted to other males. And only a tiny proportion of those who are attracted to other males have any chance of going stealth because most don't "pass." Most males who have sex with transwomen know full well ahead of time that these persons are male.

When transwomen suffer physical and emotional harm it's almost always at the hands of others of their own sex and it most often occurs in the context of ongoing and mutual domestic violence and emotional abuse in relationships with lovers, roommates, male spouses, friends - in other words, with close intimates who know the transwomen well and presumably have no problem with them being trans. Or the physical and psychological abuse occurs in relationships connected to some other kind of illegal activity, such as drug dealing, criminal enterprise (gang muggings, theft, fraud schemes, etc) and sex work.

Whilst some transwomen who do "sex work" do get physically assaulted by johns, those johns are rarely strangers. And transwomen "sex workers" who suffer physical violence and verbal abuse often do so in altercations with other transwomen fighting over turf, a man, money, drugs, stolen items, insults, etc.

Sometimes the lovers, roommates, male spouses, friends, etc who cause emotional and physical harm to transwomen are trans themselves too. The last transwoman known to have died of homicide in the UK - which IIRC was in 2017 or 2018 - was killed by another transwoman.

There's always been a lot of infighting, jealousy, envy, covetousness and temper tantrumming amongst transwomen who hang out together such as those who are in the ballroom scene and live together in group "houses" or in the old-style transvestite gangs of yesteryear - and this has always resulted in a fair bit of slapping, punching, hair pulling, wig snatching, kicking, biting, stomping, knifing and so on.

Sadly, a lot of males who identify as trans are rageholics with poor or no impulse control liable to fly off the handle and go into violent attack mode at the slightest provocation - and they tend to hang out with and have intimate relationships with other males like themselves. These persons are very quick to take offense, and once they take offense they tend to get very angry, going from zero to 1000 on the rage scale in a flash. Lashing out in violence is "second nature" to many such persons, just as it is to a lot of males who don't identify as trans.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Only a small minority of transwomen are sexually attracted to other males.

I agree with that it isn’t like a big group of transwomen, but I feel like it is the group that actually experiences violence. I feel like that’s HP was explaining. Those other groups of transwomen talk about the violence like it could happen to them, but they aren’t at risk. Obviously male violence can come from circumstances other than stealthing though.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That might be clear to you, HP and me, but it won't necessarily be the case for readers not as familiar with these issues as we are. I think a lot of people would look at HP's claim that

The actual harm done to transwomen is actually closer to ‘transwomen are extra extra gay’

And interpret it to mean that most transwomen are gay males only more so and with extra steps.

Amongst the general public and in other forums I read, most people think that nearly all transwomen are gay males with extra steps. They have no idea the vast majority are heterosexual males with AGP. In fact, most people assume that once bog-standard heterosexual males like Jenner and Levine "identify as" the opposite sex, they all suddenly change their sexual orientation and want to have sex exclusively with men. It's been a big factor in how the public has responded to the Wi Spa flashing and Loudon County rape/sexual battery cases - most people seem to think the fact that the trans-identified males in each case are sexually into females means they cannot really be trans.

Also, we really have no idea about whether the majority of transwomen who do experience violence are gay males. No stats are kept on this. When victims of the "trans murder epidemic" are trotted out by lobby groups like the HRC, no mention is made of their sexual orientation. But having looked into the details of a number of cases, I know that some of the transwomen who've died of homicide in the US in recent years were heterosexual. A number of transwomen who've publicly claimed to have been physically and/or verbally abused for being trans or for cross-dressing have been heterosexual.

The fact is, most male-on-male violence occurs between heterosexual boys & men. I see no reason why this would change when some of them identify as the opposite sex. Domestic violence doesn't just occur amongst sexual intimates; it occurs between roommates, housemates, lodgers/tenants and landlords, and various family members. Brothers, fathers, grandpas, uncles, sons, cousins commit DV against other household members as often as spouses and lovers do. Two heterosexual transwomen who live, vacation, hang out or are in prison or a shelter together are just as likely to get into a physical altercation with one another as other males.

Moreover, a lot of abuse and violence that boys and men dish out that is wholly or partly motivated by homophobia is directed at males who are not actually homosexual. Lots of boys and men who are heterosexual have nonetheless been taunted, bullied, shamed, beaten up and raped by other males because those other males have perceived them as sissies, weaklings, losers who might possibly be homosexual - or because they perceive one single thing the victimized boys and men they pick on have said or done as "gay."

I can't find it now, but a number of years ago I read a PhD thesis published circa 2009 (or maybe it was 2006) that looked at violence against trans-identified males in the CA state prison system. It found, much to the researcher's surprise, that incarcerated heterosexual transwomen were at much greater risk of violence from other male inmates than the homosexual ones were. The homosexual transwomen tended to be more valued and protected a) because they were willing to give BJs to & have penetrative sex with the other men in prison, which they were often paid for, and b) due to having lots of experience as "bottoms" in anal sex, they were very good at smuggling drugs and items like cell phones into and around the prison, and keeping such items hidden when needed, by shoving them way up their asses. As a result, when behind bars the homosexual transwomen tended to be taken under wing and given protection by the meanest, most powerful men at the top of the prisoner hierarchy running the gangs inside. Often, they served as temporary "wives" for these men too.

As a result, the researcher found that most of the homosexual transwomen in CA prisons who were interviewed didn't want to be transferred to women's prisons - the transwomen who uniformly wanted transfer to women's facilities were all heterosexual. Part of this was because they wanted access to genuine females. But another reason was that they had been subjected to violence by other male inmates. Some had beaten up and/or raped, often with objects, to show them what being a "real woman" was like. The men who committed these acts against the het transwomen didn't feel the same compulsion to treat the homosexual ones the same way, because the homosexual trans inmtes were already open to, and well practiced in, taking what men see as the "the female role" in penetrative sex. Moreover, the homosexual transwomen saw it as their place and duty to provide other "manly" males with sexual pleasure, and to behave more submissively around/to macho men, whereas the heterosexual transwomen weren't as inclined because they were often manly men quite preoccupied with their own sexual pleasure themselves.

As I said, the researcher was really surprised to find all this out about trans-identified CA prison inmates. None of it fit with the preconceived notions that caused her/him (I can't recall the researcher's sex) to be interesting in doing the research study in the first place.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Aren’t HSTS TW more likely to be subject to violence though? I feel like I’ve heard about it a lot more often when stories of murders come out. Considering there are many more AGPs, shouldn’t it be the opposite if it was anywhere near balanced? The numerous 30-something computer programmer types act like they are at risk, but I don’t think they really are.

Thanks for sharing about the prison studies! HSTS being protected and not wanting to transfer in prison feels right to me.

People are totally uninformed about how most trans people actually are if they don’t have personal experience. I tried to explain to my husband awhile back that most transwomen are attracted to women and he had a hard time grasping it. Public opinion might change about self-ID and other nonsense when understand what it actually is…

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

The belief “trans women are just extra extra gay men” is still predicated on “trans women are men”, the exact belief you loudly evangelize.

Ok so now what justifies a tra asking anybody to analyse their sexuality for alleged bigotry? What is the goal of tra is asking or expecting people to examine their sexuality for why it excludes who it excludes? Who benefits from this analysis?

In theory it’s to help people with transphobic beliefs who don’t want to be transphobic to analyze their underlying beliefs and make them align with their wish to not be transphobic. I would argue society as a whole benefits from a reduction in bigotry against the marginalized but I reckon you would disagree.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

They are men. Your choice to define men via a set of behaviours rather than nothing more than sex is not based in fact or evidence.

Why does tra need to “help” strangers? I’m not buying that it’s just some altruistic desire to reduce human suffering when someone says “suck the girldick, bigot”

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Defining trans women as men renders all relevant analysis nonsensical. By that metric trans women deserve no rights or protection since they are men and part of the dominant paradigm. This fails to accurately measure the place and needs of trans women in society. It’s bad analysis, even leaving insult aside.

Nobody needs to do anything, but discussion peoples beliefs with the aim to reduce their bigotry isn’t unique to trans people. As to the last bit, some people are assholes, that’s not unique to trans people.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Then it’s reasonable to assume to goal of asking for analysis is to encourage the person to accept tra dogma. So it’s an entry to indoctrination.

Transwomen still have rights even when we recognise that they are all men. It’s perfectly possible to enshrine rights for protection for trans people. My country has done it so don’t bullshit me with nobody would ever vote for it.

It’s not reduction of bigotry, it’s indoctrination.