QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

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[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

The trans cult says the opposite. They reject John Money for being an espouser of the socialisation of gender identity. He is infamous for trying to re-socialise Reimer. They believe his failure to re-socialise Reimer proves gender identity is innate, when the real reason he failed is because he just sexually abused a 2 year old under the guise of female socialisation.

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

I've known about gender identity since before the trans thing blew up, so it doesn't stem from them & it's not a synonym for 'feminine essence theory'. They just want their dumb biologically-determined hypothesis to sound more legitimate by appropriating the term for the socially-determined theory.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

Really? I thought that the research on males with DSDs around the world shows the exact opposite. For example, in a wide variety of cultures most males with 5-ARD - the male DSD that Caster Semenya has - who have been raised as girls decide to adopt a male "gender identity" during or after the puberty of adolescence. I think what you say only applies to those with CAIS.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I cited my source. It's the last link in the top comment.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Just because TRA have adapted the concept more to their liking, it doesn't change the fact that it was John Money who coined the term "gender identity". Tough, if you know of someone who used the term before him, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Even putting aside the medical and sexual abuse of David Reimer, Money's experiment was bound to fail. First of all, an experiment with a sample of just one person has very low statistic value even if you're using his twin as control. Also, he was bound to find the truth sooner or later. He should notice eventually that he was not like other girls. Like, for example, how would he explain his lack of menarch and his parent's lack of worry about it?

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

I'm not sure if that is the case. As far as I read about peopple with DSDs, it seems like their self-identification is usually consistent with their phenotype. For example, males with CAIS view themselves as women. Males with PAIS tend to report more unsatisfying experiences whether they are raised as girls or as boys. Males with 5 alfa reductase deficience tend to view temselves as men; even more, many of the males who are mistaken and raised as girls adopt a male identity at puberty when their bodies get virilized by the increase in testosterone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just because TRA have adapted the concept more to their liking, it doesn't change the fact that it was John Money who coined the term "gender identity". Tough, if you know of someone who used the term before him, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Robert Stoller.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

My understanding of gender identity comes from sociology, specifically social identity theory, however, John Money's gender identity is consistent with sociology's. Feminine essence theory (what TRAs actually men when they say gender identity) & gender identity are opposites. One is the nature side of the debate, the other is the nurture side.

Money's experiment was bound to fail

Why? It's been done since, properly, & hasn't failed.

For example, males with CAIS view themselves as women

OMFG, that's perfectly consistent with what I'm saying though. They look female & as a result were brought up that way. I cited my source in my first comment here. I'm unaware of a source that contradicts it.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I already explained why. It's not technoligically possible to change someone's sex. Body changes caused by exogenous hormones and surgeries are merely cosmetic rather than an actual sex change. As such, children who are raised as the opposite sex will eventually wonder why they are diferent from other children or why they need to take hormones. I did included examples of genetical males whith DSDs that are often raised as girls. You focused on males with CAIS while ignoring males with 5 alfa reductase deficience. Here are some relevant links (disclaimer: I don't endorse the authors of the second link's suggestion of using "puberty blockers"):

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

This first link says the opposite of what you're claiming it says.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Can you be more specific? The first paper clearly says:

Gender role changes were reported in 56–63% of cases with 5α-RD-2 and 39–64% of cases with 17β-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood.

I guess you may be refering to this part:

In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

But I said nothing about the phenotype at birth of males with 5a-RD-2 raised as girls. I said many of them adopt a male identity after their bodies get virilized at puberty.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Most "persist". Your own source (which is the same one I first posted in my first comment) says so:

"of the female- assigned patients of childhood age, 69% (including those with possible gender dysphoria) or 62% (excluding those) were living as females, of those of adolescent age 91% (including those with possible gender dysphoria) or 68% (excluding those), of those of adult age 65% or 47%, and of those whose age could not be categorized 100%, altogether across all ages 78% or 65%"

The study also mentions that the biggest factor is whether the sex is disclosed to the child early on (thereby failing to adequately socialise it female).

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

What are you talking about?!! Those are not the numbers mentioned in the paper of 5α-RD-2 and 17β-HSD-3! And this paper is not the one you linked!

These are the links I posted:

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

And this is the link you posted in your first comment:

Gender Identity Outcome in Female-Raised 46,XY Persons with Penile Agenesis, Cloacal Exstrophy of the Bladder, or Penile Ablation

Edit: format and added links.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I mistook your link for the same as mine, because the links look similar & a cursory glance of the paper made it look the same to me.

"Our review shows that the number of gender role changes reported on in the literature is considerable and certainly higher than in other intersex conditions [...] However, as adults, a significant number of affected individuals still lived in the female role."

"It should be considered that a small minority of DSDs feels the need to change gender later in life"

From the above quotes it seems like their results are in the minority, that my link is more representative. The third link is on gender dysphoria in intersex people due to their bodies not aligning with one sex. The better their bodies align with one o the two sexes, the less common gender dysphoria is. I don't know what the relevance of that one was.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Do you even understand they are completely different condition?!!! Whatever, I'm tired of arguing with you. Keep clinging to your ideas that you can turn men into women.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Boys who have been socialised as girls from birth almost always continue identifying as women even after the truth is known to them.

The Guevedoces in the Dominican Republic are kind of the opposite.

Imperato-McGinley's thorough medical investigations showed that in most cases their new, male equipment seems to work fine and that most Guevedoces live out their lives as men, though some go through an operation and remain female.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

Although I wonder how much their choice is influenced by the higher status that men obviously have. Still if you look like a man and have male equipment, what would keep any of them identifying as female beyond mere familiarity?

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

They are biologically unique, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they are culturally unique too.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sure culture has a big influence. I think I did read somewhere that several of the other boys who suffered the same forced sex reassignment as David Reimer stayed with their female identification. I wonder if there are recent follow ups on them and if the trans wave has affected them at all.