QT: How is the concept of a "gender identity" not sexist?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

What are you talking about?!! Those are not the numbers mentioned in the paper of 5α-RD-2 and 17β-HSD-3! And this paper is not the one you linked!

These are the links I posted:

Gender Change in 46,XY Persons with 5α-Reductase-2Deficiency and 17β-HydroxysteroidDehydrogenase-3 Deficiency

Gender identity, gender assignment and reassignment in individuals with disorders of sex development: a major of dilemma

Gender identity disorder (GID) in adolescents and adults with differences of sex development (DSD): A systematic review and meta-analysis

And this is the link you posted in your first comment:

Gender Identity Outcome in Female-Raised 46,XY Persons with Penile Agenesis, Cloacal Exstrophy of the Bladder, or Penile Ablation

Edit: format and added links.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I mistook your link for the same as mine, because the links look similar & a cursory glance of the paper made it look the same to me.

"Our review shows that the number of gender role changes reported on in the literature is considerable and certainly higher than in other intersex conditions [...] However, as adults, a significant number of affected individuals still lived in the female role."

"It should be considered that a small minority of DSDs feels the need to change gender later in life"

From the above quotes it seems like their results are in the minority, that my link is more representative. The third link is on gender dysphoria in intersex people due to their bodies not aligning with one sex. The better their bodies align with one o the two sexes, the less common gender dysphoria is. I don't know what the relevance of that one was.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Do you even understand they are completely different condition?!!! Whatever, I'm tired of arguing with you. Keep clinging to your ideas that you can turn men into women.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

They all belong under the same umbrella of intersex, otherwise your studies wouldn't mention the fact that they are in the minority with their findings. A man is an adult human male. Sex can't be changed. I never once said, let alone clung to the idea that men can be turned into women.

You've made it pretty clear at this point that you're not misunderstanding what I'm saying. Your misinterpretations are conscious, deliberate. I can see why you call me a liar. It's deflection. You habitually misrepresent what I'm saying (i.e. you lie), then you fail to address any of the points I made (lies by omission). Instead of it ending there, with you levying all sorts of accusations at me, you add "liar" to the concoction, making you not just a liar, but a hypocrite to boot. Am I calling you names, or calling you out?

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

YOU WAS THE FIRST ONE IMPLYING I WAS LIAR WHEN YOU SAID THE PAPER I LINKED WAS THE SAME AS THE ONE YOU DID! AND THEN YOU DOUBLED DOWN WITH THE LIES BY TRYING TO MAKE ME BELIEVE YOU JUST CONFUSED THEM! IT'S ABSURD YOU GET MAD FOR BEING CALLED A LIAR YOURSELF.

As for the turning men into women, obviously I dind't meant it literally. It was a reference to your beloved concept of "gender identity". It's called context, ever heard about it?

By the way, how does 5 alfa reductase deficiency fits into the blank slate theory?

I take nothing back about what I said. You was the one who started with the condescending actitude and the lies.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You're the only one here who is getting mad at being called a liar. I thought you said you were done arguing? Just another lie, I suppose. The titles look similar. I never memorised all the conditions covered in my link. The same way you falsely accused me of name-calling, is the same way you're still falsely accusing me of lying.

Your beloved concept of "gender identity"

Camp who say gender identity is determined by socialisation: Stoller, Money, Kohlberg, Bussey, Bandura

Camp who says gender identity doesn't exist: ... crickets... tumble weed... more crickets

It's counter-productive for GC to reject gendered socialisation.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You keep misrepresenting what I say and you wonder why I keep defending myself? Please. I NEVER said women and men are not socialized differently! I don't need to accept the concept of "gender identity" to recognize that sex roles and stereotypes exist.

So, first you present that paper like the definite proof and that has not been refuted, but you don't even understand what it talk about?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

That paper was just an example of people whose gender identity & sex are genuinely mismatched. You admit that their socialisation is "mismatched" with their sex, right? You admit that socialisation affects behaviour, right? But not identity? What is the reason you don't think gender identity exists? Just because I didn't memorise the conditions covered ≠ I don't understand the paper.

Socialisation shapes identity. Identity determines behaviour. Gendered socialisation shapes gender identity. Gender identity determines gendered behaviours.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

That paper talked about males who were medically abused and lied to about their medical history just because they were deemed inadequate to be raised as boys. How successful their parents at raising them as “girls” were, I don’t know. The parents and the doctors knew the truth, and I would think that may affect how they treated them. And regardless of how they view themselves, their actual sex is still important for things like health care, for example. That is why I said it was interesting that re-identification with their sex increased with age: because the older they get, the harder is to keep the lie and the more likely they may rebel against their parents and doctors wishes, I think.

I don’t believe in the blank slate theory. I think differences between women and men are the result of the interaction between biology and the environment (women and men being socialized differently is part of that environment).

I explained in my other comment today why I don’t believe in “gender identity”. I am a woman. That is my reality, this has nothing to do about how my family raised me (although likely they would have raised me differently if I’d been born male). And the fact I am female has shaped and will keep shaping my life, either because of biology or because of society.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

That paper talked about males who were medically abused and lied to about their medical history just because they were deemed inadequate to be raised as boys. How successful their parents at raising them as “girls” were, I don’t know. The parents and the doctors knew the truth, and I would think that may affect how they treated them. And regardless of how they view themselves, their actual sex is still important for things like health care, for example.

No one disagrees with any of this.

That is why I said it was interesting that re-identification with their sex increased with age: because the older they get, the harder is to keep the lie

What lie? 100% of the sample know the truth.

The fact that female mathematician role models affect girls' performance in maths exams clearly demonstrates that gender identity exists. If it was called "sex identity" you'd probably accept it in a heartbeat. You've got to divorce the connotation of a term from its denotation.

And the fact I am female has shaped and will keep shaping my life

Replace "life" with 'identity'. The part of your identity shaped by your socialisation as a result of your sex is called a gender identity. How is that the least bit controversial?