QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (69 children)

A civil person can avoid referring to someone by the thing that they hate most about themselves. Neutral options exist. You likely don’t call people fatty or mock them for a physical disability, why mock them for their chromosomes?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

It isn’t used mockingly. This is why we say it’s purely about feelings. You feel it’s mocking because you have unresolved issues with men and feel man is an insult.

Most people do not think this way. Most people do not think male=big dumb violent ape and do not use the term man or male to refer to a big dumb violent ape.

Why don’t the feelings of women who are insulted by calling a male a woman matter but the feelings of a transwoman who’s insulted by their own personal connotations to a word matter?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (44 children)

Man is an insult to a trans woman. And you know that. You at minimum choose to use a term that you know is insulting, regardless of whatever secret intent you may have.

If you don’t want to respect us, you could easily avoid gendered address or use neutral address, but you choose not to.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

You have no idea what I do in day to day life but ok. Yet again presume I’m out there trying to hurt y’all all day long. I’m asking questions about why you think what you think. It’s got nothing to do with what choices I make so cool it with the accusations for once in your damn life.

What is insulting about male? Why is recognising your sex the same as calling someone a c—t or a piece of shit?

Because it hurts the persons feelings or because it’s objectively insulting?

Care to answer anything I asked or just gonna accuse me of more shit you infer from some being asked something?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (30 children)

I recognize I am male but it’s still a terrible thing to be called. That’s also not the same as man which is well worse. Even male is insulting because it’s insulting. It’s calling someone fat or mocking a disability or deformity. If someone hates something about themself, espescially if they’ve changed it as much as possible. It’s at best a petty cruelty to refer to them as if that’s their defining trait.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

So you can’t explain how it is an insult beyond you dislike being reminded of your sex.

Nobody is saying it’s anybody’s single defining trait. It is one trait they have, and that trait happens to be what we base pronouns on.

Once again that is purely your personal interpretation, clearly coloured by years of resentment towards the males who made you feel dreadful as a child and adolescent. Since it appears you are still incapable of considering anything without your personal bias blinders on, I realise my questions are futile and you will simply continue to call me petty, cruel, and whatever else

It is rude and petty to say that someone’s feelings about compelled speech are insignificant in comparison to your idiosyncratic interpretation of someone recognising your sex.

Good luck with the thought and speech policing. Maybe you’ll find the control over other people’s perceptions of you that you’re seeking. Interacting with you again was a mistake. No need to respond.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (28 children)

Well since you asked a bunch of questions and insults I guess I will answer the for posterity anyway.

It’s a self evident insult. It is fundamentally hateful and disrespectful. I’d be less offended by being called ugly, stupid, or so many other things than being called a man.

Nobody is saying it’s anybody’s single defining trait.

You are. You are defining us and labeling us by that one trait over our objections and best efforts. How are you not treating it as a defining trait?

It is rude and petty to say that someone’s feelings about compelled speech are insignificant in comparison to your idiosyncratic interpretation of someone recognising your sex.

You have the option to say nothing or use neutral address. It’s in no way compelled speech. No one is forcing you to talk.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

It’s not fundamentally an insult because you dont like it. Why would you be the arbiter of what’s an insult and what’s not?

It’s like you’re physically incapable of recognising that other people have different thoughts to you lmao.

No, you’re just insisting we shit the fuck up forever because your feelings get hurt by your choice to assign meaning to a word that nobody else assigns to it.

Shocker, no explanations beyond “my feeling is a fact”

When I call a customer sir, I can assure you that I’m not right there informing him of everything he is. You just think that’s what’s happening because you reject the idea that other people define man as adult human male and not the garbage you’ve convinced yourself the word means.

Knowing a male is male says exactly nothing about his character, intelligence, ability, attractiveness, or choices. Only you and conservative sexists think that male is means or infers anything other than sex.

And now you’ll ignore all this and repeat that male is the worst word in the universe to call anyone cause you still either can’t or choose not to recognise anything other than your emotions as being real.

Really, good luck with managing to control others. Call people petty and cruel some more and they will see that your feelings are what defines words.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Insults are always inherently a subjective phenomenon.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (25 children)

You pretending that it isn’t intended as an insult is honestly baffling.

You use calling a customer sir as an example so let’s go from there. You clock a trans woman. You know she is a trans woman. You could say M’aam or miss but you obviously would object to that. You could also just leave off the address. Simply say “Have a nice day” or “What can I do for you?”. Gendered address need not enter it. Instead you actively choose to call someone that you know they will be insulted and hurt by. You know perfectly well how they would feel about being called that and that they will be insulted. Why use a gendered address at all when simply saying nothing causes no harm and is literally less work?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (24 children)

Love how you repeatedly presume I’m calling transwomen sir all day every day and not just asking you questions. Really drives home how you refuse to register what’s actually being said to you in order to continue ignoring what you can’t answer.

I’m pretending nothing. I’m saying that you interpreting a word as an insult does not suddenly make it an actual insult to anyone else. I’m saying that the word is used to say adult human male and not whatever bullshit sexism you prefer to claim it is.

Seriously either actually answer me or go make up stories about other people’s day.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If "man" and "male" are terrible insults, we shouldn't be calling anyone those words. They should be unutterable in polite company, they should be bleeped out when people say them on TV. Words that are intrinsically slurs aren't normally justified by saying, "it's an insult for me but some people really are that thing." Imagine if we treated any other horrible slur that way. Well, if you call me a ***** that's one of the worst possible insults, but you can call that person by that word, because they really are a *****. It just doesn't work that way.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Words have different effect depending on who they are pointed on. Consider how society treats calling a girl pretty vs calling a boy pretty.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Can I ask, when dysphoric patients start getting treatment and therapy and discussing transitioning, do the therapists not do anything to help the patient learn to cope with these types of issues? Just coping mechanisms or something to help deal with either circumstances or people triggering you?

Meaning do they do anything to prepare you for situations where you may be called biologically accurate terms or just any type of situation where dysphoria is triggered or your sense of identity isn’t validated/affirmed?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personally when I was first in therapy it took me a long time to convince my first therapist to support hormones, largely because I would never pass and therefore would never be able to integrate socially, that’s why I went informed consent at first. Though she did eventually agree to backing hormones but only once I had already started. But she did suggest some generally coping mechanisms. Then again she has quite a terrible reputation and my ensuing therapists have done very differently so it’s hard to say.

As I’m not a therapist I can’t speak beyond my own experiences.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s fair. I was just wondering in general but I guess that’s a question to ask more openly. I’m just wondering, I would hope it would be a standard in treatment, but it kind of seems like it’s not. (Not because of your response, just things I’ve noticed other trans people here say)

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Males of previous generations who were "gender non-conforming" or wished they were the opposite sex did not see the words "man" and "boy" as insults. A few examples:

https://youtu.be/kGfK6yJ2CAU

https://youtu.be/cJRP3LRcUFg

https://youtu.be/_r0n9Dv6XnY

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

That appears to be a music video of a a man who is expressing how cis he is, man who is pretty clearly cis and a man who is definitely cis.

Being not espescially masculine but still comfortably a man isn’t the same as being trans. It’s about dysphoria, not liking tight pants.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Those are three different videos of three different men, each struggling with the issues they have/had with their sexed bodies, sexualities and identities in their own ways. But of course you looked at only one, and sneeringly dismissed it.

Advice from one of the great "gender benders" of the 70s/80s, Marilyn Peter Robinson: Just Be https://youtu.be/X1vfQvOdK9M

Earlier videos of Marilyn from the 80s: https://youtu.be/Wy6flAFWZmc and https://youtu.be/bMw_iosf5QI

I recognize I am male but it’s still a terrible thing to be called. That’s also not the same as man which is well worse. Even male is insulting because it’s insulting. It’s calling someone fat or mocking a disability or deformity. If someone hates something about themself, espescially if they’ve changed it as much as possible. It’s at best a petty cruelty to refer to them as if that’s their defining trait.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being male! The sense you have that by being recognized as your sex you're being called something terrible and you're being insulted, mocked, hated, and subjected to cruelty by the whole world is a mistaken idea within your own psyche.

I'm really sorry you feel this way, but honestly your own internalized misandry is not the fault of me, anyone else here or in the wider world.

I wish you well and sympathize with you as another suffering human being with issues concerning our bodies and our sex - but at the same time, I'm not gonna agree that observing, making note of and speaking your sex is mocking, insulting and subjecting you to cruelty.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Those are three different videos of three different men, each struggling with the issues they have/had with their sexed bodies, sexualities and identities in their own ways.

No. Morrisey wasn’t trans. Like not even close. I can’t speak to the other 2 but not changing your body and singing about how much of a man you are are pretty clear cis signs.

But of course you looked at only one, and sneeringly dismissed it.

I watched all of them. But I also was already familiar with the Smiths.

Are you just ignoring what I am saying now? Some random Femme dude isn’t a trans woman. They aren’t the same thing.

And just be is exactly what we want. To go about our lives without being insulted by random people who could just leave us alone.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being male!

Maybe not to you, but if I wasn’t male my life would be so much better in every way. Jesus to be able to not be looked at as a freak by most people is a dream.

Everyone who interacts with me knows the score. I’m obviously a trans woman and you cannot reasonable mistake me for anything else. Anyone who misgenders me is sending a message. It’s a conscious choice to hurt when literally saying nothing is an option.

I'm not gonna agree that observing, making note of and speaking your sex is mocking, insulting and subjecting you to cruelty.

Hurting someone when you could literally just choose to do nothing instead is cruelty. You don’t have to acknowledge that but can you really deny it?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Huh? I never said any of these guys were "trans".

I am not mocking, insulting, hurting or being cruel to you. My guess is that this is the case for most of the people you encounter in your life.

Maybe there are people you know who have it in for you. Which is really too bad. But amongst those of us who are strangers, no one is out to get you, do you harm and cause you pain. The whole world isn't looking at you and judging you. Most people you come across in your daily life probably hardly notice you. That's how it is for everyone.

if I wasn’t male my life would be so much better in every way.

Nah, mate. If you were female, you'd have a whole different set of problems. The grass isn't always greener...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

It is impossible to say whether or not someone’s life would be better in a different set of circumstances, excepting situations where people are already in the worst possible situation imaginable.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Huh? I never said any of these guys were "trans".

Then they aren’t relevant to the discussion. Comparing a few not super masculine cis dudes to trans women is false equivalence. It’s pretty easy to be called a man when you don’t have dysphoria I imagine.

I am not mocking, insulting, hurting or being cruel to you. My guess is that this is the case for most of the people you encounter in your life.

You are just wrong. At minimum they know they are choosing to address a trans woman as a man when they could have chosen to just not use gendered address. They choose to harm.

Maybe there are people you know who have it in for you. Which is really too bad. But amongst those of us who are strangers, no one is out to get you, do you harm and cause you pain. The whole world isn't looking at you and judging you. Most people you come across in your daily life probably hardly notice you. That's how it is for everyone.

You have absolutely no concept of what it’s like to be a nonpassing trans woman. Particularly in a red state. Everyone notices you. Everyone. Most are benign enough to just give a judgmental look. Sometimes you get a nod from another queer person, I would kill to be able to walk through a room and have noone pay attention.

Nah, mate. If you were female, you'd have a whole different set of problems. The grass isn't always greener...

In this case it literally is. Certainly natal women on the whole have it harder than cis men and many trans women, but in my case my life would absolutely have been so much better as a natal woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I mean... a civil person wouldn’t ask someone to speak against their beliefs.

I would not call an overweight person a fatty, but I’m also not gonna lie and call them thin. It’s not mocking to acknowledge a fact. I do agree that irl it’s better to use neutral options, but I’ve seen people say that even that is transphobic or disrespectful.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I think neutral pronouns are a fine compromise personally but I’m not the high arbiter of trans people.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh no I’m not saying you are lol. I’m just saying I feel like the argument of “it’s the polite thing to do” kind of works both ways. People think what they think, and if a TW is male to them, demanding female pronouns could be taken as just as rude to the other side of the argument. I think the best bet for both sides is to compromise with neutral pronouns, but there are gc who think that’s still unfair and definitely qt who say that it’s transphobic to compromise on anything less than preferred pronouns. My point is just that it seems like when we come to the pronoun debate specifically, the argument of politesse or respect kind of can be used on both sides.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

Thin and fat are terms that always imply a subjective comparison. They aren’t objective without context qualifiers

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I said I wouldn’t call an overweight person a fatty. Thin and fat may be subjective, but observing/recognizing that someone is someone overweight or obese, or under weight isn’t. I said I wouldn’t call someone who is overweight “thin” and I also wouldn’t call them fat. So I’m not sure what your point it. I’m flattered that you’re taking the time to go through and respond to all of my comments tho

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

Looking for rule violations to report. They’re everywhere!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Sure, I guess. It’s odd that you’d report something not aimed at you when the person it was said to didnt, but whatever. I was just wondering if you were being fair and reporting the many violations that qt males as well, or if you’re just going after GC.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

Everything I see. This place needs more order and less snark.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It would probably make more sense to just massage the mods about it than sending a bunch of reports but that’s just my opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I mean getting that crick out of their necks would be nice, but do you really think it would help?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think sending one message, as opposed to sending several reports would be easier. That’s just what I would do, is all I’m saying

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

A civil person can avoid referring to someone by the thing that they hate most about themselves. Neutral options exist. You likely don’t call people fatty or mock them for a physical disability, why mock them for their chromosomes?

Assuming and claiming that people with a physical disability see their/our disability as

the thing that they hate most about themselves

is really offensive and fucked up.

Trans ideology seems to be all about getting people to loathe aspects of our bodies, and to do so mainly based on what these aspects look like. Whereas most people with a disability, physical anomaly, genetic defect, life-altering medical condition or fatal disease will attest that learning to accept our flaws, physical reality and mortality is key to attaining any level of mental health and peace of mind.

Moreover, most people used to learn growing up that basing your sense of self and mental wellbeing on your (youthful) looks is a surefire recipe for lifelong misery.

Also, since when did simply making note of and mentioning a person's sex become "mocking them"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Trans ideology seems to be all about getting people to loathe aspects of our bodies, and to do so mainly based on what these aspects look like.

It’s not about “getting people to loathe” anything. We do. It’s called dysphoria. It’s not a choice it’s our reality.

Whereas most people with a disability, physical anomaly, genetic defect, life-altering medical condition or fatal disease will attest that learning to accept our flaws, physical reality and mortality is key to attaining any level of mental health and peace of mind.

Bold of you to presume to speak for the attitudes of “most people” with those things and assume I don’t have a disability. But again, dysphoria isn’t a choice. Magical happy thoughts can’t make you stop wanting to vomit or cry seeing your genitals.

Also, since when did simply making note of and mentioning a person's sex become "mocking them"?

You are calling a trans woman a man when you cold say nothing or use a neutral address even if you don’t want to be affirming. You are choosing to knowingly insult them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Magical happy thoughts can’t make you stop wanting to vomit or cry seeing your genitals.

Who here has suggested that "magical happy thoughts" are the cure for body loathing? Certainly not I.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Who here has suggested that "magical happy thoughts" are the cure for body loathing? Certainly not I.

learning to accept our flaws, physical reality and mortality is key to attaining any level of mental health and peace of mind.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Therapy and personal growth/acceptance of the unchangeable isn’t just thinking happy thoughts.
Very concerning that you reduce all the work people do to learn to accept their disabilities as magical thoughts.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learning to accept ourselves is definitely not a magical, instant process! And it's sure not a wholly happy experience, at least not at every step along the way. It's a long-haul endeavor that involves facing our internal demons and experiencing pain.

Human happiness in itself is probably an unrealistic goal. Most people don't go through our days feeling happy. Most of us have a whole lot of unhappy feelings, but we accept them as part and parcel of the human condition and try to manage them as best we can.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

we accept them as part and parcel of the human condition and try to manage them as best we can.

You dismissing trans people then saying this is blowing my mind. That’s what we are doing. Trying to manage by changing what we can.