QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

They get treated more similar to natal women than to men. When you enforce a binary as you are attempting to do, it forces a polarization, on any metric but medical the grouping of natal women and trans women being separated from cis men and trans men makes the most sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

“they get treated more similar to natal women than to men.”

How so? What treatment specifically?

“When you enforce a binary as you are attempting to do, it forces a polarization,”

I don’t enforce it. I recognize and acknowledge it. You’re forcing TW on women regardless of how women may feel about it and you can’t even make it make sense. The fact that TW get away with this and women get vilified for objecting to it is, to me, a huge difference between us. Women who object get vilified because we are female and people expect things from females that they don’t expect from males.

“on any metric but medical”

The medical part is huge- HUGE- tho. Females function so drastically differently than males, even TW. There’s also mental- you will never know what it is to be female and never have appear male or be treated as a male, you won’t ever know what it’s like to be raised as a female and develop naturally as one, and you will always be experiencing life as a male who is perceived as female (presumably)- thats not the same as existing as a female. We have nothing in common because females internalize the same treatment differently than TW do. And as I said, a non passing TW won’t be treated the same as passing TW.

“The grouping of natal women and trans women being separated from cis men and trans men makes the most sense.”

Not if the way we experience life is different internally and externally, and our anatomy/physiology is different.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

How so? What treatment specifically?

Passing/stealth trans women are treated as natal women exactly. Even those that don’t pass are treated as lesser and subjected to general marginalization and scorn from the mysogynistic society as a whole. This includes application of pressure to meet feminine appearance and behavior standards to garner better treatment as more acceptable to that society.

I don’t enforce it. I recognize and acknowledge it. You’re forcing TW on women regardless of how women may feel about it and you can’t even make it make sense.

You are trying to force men on us despite our objections. And your arguments end as chromosomes and you not liking trans women because we are “men”.

I don’t enforce it. I recognize and acknowledge it. You’re forcing TW on women regardless of how women may feel about it and you can’t even make it make sense.

You constantly argue that not only must there be a binary but that is is of such extreme importance that it should essentially control everything about the way trans people are allowed to exist.

thats not the same as existing as a female

Which means nothing because i argume female isn’t the defining factor. Your conclusion assumes that being female is what matters rather than societal interaction. A trans men knows your experiences at minimum no better than I but you group them together.

Not if the way we experience life is different internally and externally, and our anatomy/physiology is different.

By that metric you shouldn’t call us men. Any transitioning trans woman has different internal and external experiences to cis men. Same between natal woman and trans men. At best your logic dictates at least 4 categories.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

“Passing/stealth trans women are treated as natal women exactly.”

You assume. How are women treated? And why are we grouping people based on how they are treated but their treatment isn’t a part of your definition?

“those that don’t pass are treated as lesser and subjected to general marginalization and scorn from the mysogynistic society as a whole. This includes application of pressure to meet feminine appearance and behavior standards to garner better treatment as more acceptable to that society.”

Then women would need to be defined as how women are treated, right? Why is that not a part of your definition?

“You are trying to force men on us despite our objections.”

I’m saying it makes the most sense to group humans by sex. Your objections are personal, mine are biological and functional, which is how we’ve always been separated.

“And your arguments end as chromosomes and you not liking trans women because we are “men”.”

If you think that the only difference is chromosomes I think we’d need to back up and have a conversation about the basic differences between sexes before we can continue the conversation

“You constantly argue that not only must there be a binary but that is is of such extreme importance that it should essentially control everything about the way trans people are allowed to exist.”

No. You’ve never proven that the binary doesn’t exist. I argue that because it exists, it doesn’t make sense to just act like it doesn’t so TW can call themselves women and pretend it makes sense. You have to show that it doesn’t exist.

“Which means nothing because i argume female isn’t the defining factor.”

Then what is the defining factor? And why?

“Your conclusion assumes that being female is what matters rather than societal interaction.”

Why isn’t it? And why do even passing TW get rejected or treated differently if discovered to be trans?

“A trans men knows your experiences at minimum no better than I but you group them together.”

I think TM understand better than TW because before they passed as male they experienced it themselves, and likely still experience some aspects of it, since many still endure pregnancy and periods and other female specific health concerns. They still grew up female, and were treated as such until they transitioned.

“By that metric you shouldn’t call us men.”

I don’t think it makes sense define people by how they may or may not be treated. I call them men because they fit the definition of the term.

“Any transitioning trans woman has different internal and external experiences to cis men.”

But they know what it is to be physically male. And were treated like males growing up. All people have varying internal and external experiences.

“Same between natal woman and trans men. At best your logic dictates at least 4 categories.”

4 makes more sense than lumping TW in with women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You assume.

Logic dictates. If one believes someone is a woman they would definitionally treat them as they think they should treat a woman. That doesn’t even require defining those behaviors.

Then women would need to be defined as how women are treated, right? Why is that not a part of your definition?

Natal Women are treated differently in different contexts but always as lesser than men, same with trans women.

I’m saying it makes the most sense to group humans by sex. Your objections are personal, mine are biological and functional, which is how we’ve always been separated.

That doesn’t make it right. You accuse me of wanting to foist men onto you against your objections but that’s precisely what you are doing to me over my objections. The fact you like your definition more doesn’t make it not hypocrisy.

No. You’ve never proven that the binary doesn’t exist. I argue that because it exists, it doesn’t make sense to just act like it doesn’t so TW can call themselves women and pretend it makes sense. You have to show that it doesn’t exist.

A binary does exist. Our society enforces it. You are arguing that a binary based on sexual should define every aspect of our lives. I don’t think it should. But I also recognize the binary that is enforced by the social context and how it treats natal women and “women like” as lesser.

Then what is the defining factor? And why?

Social interaction because when you are establishing rules for society social context is what matters.

Why isn’t it? And why do even passing TW get rejected or treated differently if discovered to be trans?

Why should it be? Sex is immaterial because you have essentially nothing in common with a trans man and I have absolutely nothing in common with a cis man. Our minds, bodies, social treatment. Literally everything is different. If sex made sense as a metric that wouldn’t be the case.

I call them men because they fit the definition of the term.

We have nothing in common with men other than chromosomes. I assert your definition fails to be useful it it would put a man and a trans women in the same category because they have no meaningful similarity.

But they know what it is to be physically male.

But not what it’s like to be physically male without dysphoria. That’s not the same.

And were treated like males growing up.

Assuming they successfully masked. In which case you gave trauma from dysphoria and from being unable to have genuine interaction.

All people have varying internal and external experiences.

Then your argument that that difference should bar us being considered women fails on the same line doesn’t it?

4 makes more sense than lumping TW in with women.

I disagree but it would certainly beat being considered a man.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Lmao

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

You also go to text laughter when you are out of arguments.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I’m not out of arguments lol. You’re just reaching and we have so many threads that it seems pointless to keep going on this one. You’re demanding things based on feelings, with no real justification for your demands. I’d rather focus on something where you’re at least discussing something worth going back and forth over

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

And you are demanding to group me with men on no meaningful basis. A trans woman’s experiences are not a man’s experiences.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

If I’m grouping by sex, which is how all sexed beings are grouped btw, then yeah, it makes the most sense to group males with males.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You appear to be saying that if a disguise is effective, then it's no longer a disguise. By that logic trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton are women, but you reject that idea. Not only do you think Debbie isn't a woman, you don't even think she is trans. What if you are a GNC woman who keeps getting misgendered? Are you a man due to how "society treats you"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You appear to be saying that if a disguise is effective, then it's no longer a disguise.

That’s not what I said at all. I said that given the way humans live and our society operates there’s a need for categorization of natal women and trans women as a discreet group as well as a group that separates trans men from trans women and natal women.

By that logic trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton are women, but you reject that idea.

I’ve expressly said I would respect her pronouns but no I personally wouldn’t call her a trans woman (since she must not be dysphoric if she calls herself a man) so by my definition she would not be a trans woman and therefore not a woman, but I wouldn’t force someone else to identify themselves by my definition.

What if you are a GNC woman who keeps getting misgendered? Are you a man due to how "society treats you"?

If a natal woman isn’t trans she isn’t a man.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So now you are back-pedalling, since you have randomly decided that it's not based on treatment anymore.

I said that given the way humans live and our society operates there’s a need for categorization of natal women and trans women as a discreet group

How do you square that with still grouping Debbie Hayton in with men? Trans-womxyn have more in common with men like Debbie than they do with women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Hayton doesn’t have dysphoria. She’s essentially just a crossdresser as far as I’m concerned. But I also won’t hold her to my definition.

Regardless she’s still treated as lesser because she is at least seen as women like.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So it went from how society treats a trans-woman to whether she has dysphoria or not. Crossdressers are women according to your now seemingly abandoned metric. Even autogynaephiles have gender dysphoria though. Are they women too?

See how trying to force trans-womxyn into the woman category doesn't work? Conversely, they sit rather comfortably in the men category, due to all the overlap between them & gay men, crossdressers, femboys, autogynaephiles etc.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Cross dressers can take off clothes. Trans women can’t just undo hormones and go back and forth.

Even autogynaephiles have gender dysphoria though. Are they women too?

If they actually have dysphoria ( which isn’t true of most autogynephiles in my experience) and transition I would think so.

Trans women don’t fit in the man category at all. Our bodies aren’t like theirs. Our minds aren’t like theirs. Even our experiences pretransition aren’t the same because our minds are different. Nothing but a Y chromosome in common.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

trans-womxyn's bodies, minds, experiences fall within the range of variability exhibited by men, but not women

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No. They don’t. My mind is nothing like a man’s. My body is certainly nothing like a man’s. You can reasonably argue we aren’t women but it ignores basically the whole of society to say we are men.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If a man had been in an accident that left him looking & behaving differently from most people, would that mean he was no longer a man? Seems like cherry picking. Why do the differences point to "not man"? It could just as easily be regarded as a different sexual orientation, for instance, since transgender people are different from both gay & straight people.