QT: If women can be male, wtf is a woman then? What term, if any, should we use to describe the female sex?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You assume.

Logic dictates. If one believes someone is a woman they would definitionally treat them as they think they should treat a woman. That doesn’t even require defining those behaviors.

Then women would need to be defined as how women are treated, right? Why is that not a part of your definition?

Natal Women are treated differently in different contexts but always as lesser than men, same with trans women.

I’m saying it makes the most sense to group humans by sex. Your objections are personal, mine are biological and functional, which is how we’ve always been separated.

That doesn’t make it right. You accuse me of wanting to foist men onto you against your objections but that’s precisely what you are doing to me over my objections. The fact you like your definition more doesn’t make it not hypocrisy.

No. You’ve never proven that the binary doesn’t exist. I argue that because it exists, it doesn’t make sense to just act like it doesn’t so TW can call themselves women and pretend it makes sense. You have to show that it doesn’t exist.

A binary does exist. Our society enforces it. You are arguing that a binary based on sexual should define every aspect of our lives. I don’t think it should. But I also recognize the binary that is enforced by the social context and how it treats natal women and “women like” as lesser.

Then what is the defining factor? And why?

Social interaction because when you are establishing rules for society social context is what matters.

Why isn’t it? And why do even passing TW get rejected or treated differently if discovered to be trans?

Why should it be? Sex is immaterial because you have essentially nothing in common with a trans man and I have absolutely nothing in common with a cis man. Our minds, bodies, social treatment. Literally everything is different. If sex made sense as a metric that wouldn’t be the case.

I call them men because they fit the definition of the term.

We have nothing in common with men other than chromosomes. I assert your definition fails to be useful it it would put a man and a trans women in the same category because they have no meaningful similarity.

But they know what it is to be physically male.

But not what it’s like to be physically male without dysphoria. That’s not the same.

And were treated like males growing up.

Assuming they successfully masked. In which case you gave trauma from dysphoria and from being unable to have genuine interaction.

All people have varying internal and external experiences.

Then your argument that that difference should bar us being considered women fails on the same line doesn’t it?

4 makes more sense than lumping TW in with women.

I disagree but it would certainly beat being considered a man.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Lmao

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

You also go to text laughter when you are out of arguments.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I’m not out of arguments lol. You’re just reaching and we have so many threads that it seems pointless to keep going on this one. You’re demanding things based on feelings, with no real justification for your demands. I’d rather focus on something where you’re at least discussing something worth going back and forth over

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

And you are demanding to group me with men on no meaningful basis. A trans woman’s experiences are not a man’s experiences.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

If I’m grouping by sex, which is how all sexed beings are grouped btw, then yeah, it makes the most sense to group males with males.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I disagree. It’s baseless and any taxonomy that puts trans women with cis men and trans men with natal women fails to serve any useful purpose because those groups have nothing relevant in common.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Lmao that’s just not true. It feels like you just decide what your ideal scenario would be and you just reach backwards and twist to try to make it fit. It’s too much. Even your way of thinking and the things you push for and the tactics you use are so... male. You personally seem to have no understanding of women and what we need want or feel and yet you are the most staunch advocate for forcing males into us. I just- god you say all TW think like you and that’s so terrifying.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

That’s basically all a lie.

The failings of your scheme to address the realities of trans people are plain but you deny them and pretend they don’t exist.

Your constant reversion to finding ways to talk about how I am so masculine constantly because you know it is hurtful is so transparent, on top of calling though patterns male implying the kind of biological determinism that gc pretends to be against in the process.

Not to mention the purposefully rape suggestive language or “forcing males onto you”. It’s tawdry and uncalled for.

I’ve never one said all trans women think like me. I’d hate to think they did, I consider myself a freak and have no hope.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It’s not a lie. What trans people go through has nothing to do with women or what women go through. Just because being trans is hard doesn’t mean women have to just accept whatever the fuck you demand from us.

It’s not uncalled for to say that you’re forcing yourself on women. Obviously it’s not in a sexual way (at least not from you but let’s not pretend that this isn’t a thing that TW who think they are lesbians do...). It is what you’re doing. Women don’t want to be lumped with TW. We don’t want anything to do with TW. Some may be allies, some may be too uneducated to give a fuck, but most women don’t consider TW women and shouldn’t have to accept TW inserting themselves into our spaces, language, and whatever else TW can think to force themselves into.

You have generalized about what TW want ans how they think many many times. If that’s not what you meant then it wasn’t clear to me.

I don’t point out your masculinity to be hurtful. I need you to understand that you do display a stereotypical male mentality. And that is scary to me. Genuinely scary. Because you don’t seem to realize it. You don’t see the harm you spread with what you say and while you say these scary and harmful things you think there’s nothing masculine or “male” about it. You say things I’ve heard from other males. Often. It is scary. Because you and maybe other male people who think like you are going to be in my safe spaces and there’s nothing I can do about it. It genuinely makes me feel scared and uncomfortable to think about that. But go ahead and make me the bully because it hurts your feelings to read it. I wish the shit you said just hurt my feelings.