QT: If anorexics identify as underweight, is it wrong to give them weight-restoring treatment?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (102 children)

Im actually not conflating anything. I’m asking why the idea of gender identity is taken seriously, when a trans person who claims to identify as the opposite sex/gender would have nothing to base it on, since they’ve only existed in their own (oppositely sexed) body at the time that they understand their identity? How can they know and others accept the gender identity as accurate and not a side effect of a mental condition?

And if dysphoria is caused by those other issues, or there are other issues present- does every trans person get those other issues sorted out before they begin transitioning? (Honest question- I genuinely wonder this constantly)

As for your answer of how you identify yourself- how does distress equal “I’m a male woman”? That’s what I don’t get. Obvi you don’t have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable, but what I never understand is how distress that leads to you identifying out of your sex means you actually aren’t your sex/gender (I know you said male woman- to me woman is a sexed term not a gendered one, clarifying in case that’s confusing). To me, the hormones and surgery and every thing else that comes with transitioning emphasizes that you’d be your actual sexed term, because you’d not need any of the transitioning if you weren’t. Not trying to be rude, just woke up and can’t word well yet.

I understand the differences between anorexia and gender dysphoria- what j was asking is how can we trust that the gender identity of a trans person is accurate and true, as opposed to a side effect of a mental health issue?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (101 children)

Im actually not conflating anything. I’m asking why the idea of gender identity is taken seriously, when a trans person who claims to identify as the opposite sex/gender would have nothing to base it on, since they’ve only existed in their own (oppositely sexed) body at the time that they understand their identity? How can they know and others accept the gender identity as accurate and not a side effect of a mental condition?

Because identity is personal and not something so simple as a physical feature.

And if dysphoria is caused by those other issues, or there are other issues present- does every trans person get those other issues sorted out before they begin transitioning?

You can’t. My depression was worsened by dysphoria. Suicidal thoughts were caused by dysphoria. Those things are caused by and entwined with dysphoria. They have to be worked in together you can’t just excise depression. Even if you could it would be ignoring a condition in immediate need of treatment for no justifiable reasons.

As for your answer of how you identify yourself- how does distress equal “I’m a male woman”? That’s what I don’t get. Obvi you don’t have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable, but what I never understand is how distress that leads to you identifying out of your sex means you actually aren’t your sex/gender (I know you said male woman- to me woman is a sexed term not a gendered one, clarifying in case that’s confusing). To me, the hormones and surgery and every thing else that comes with transitioning emphasizes that you’d be your actual sexed term, because you’d not need any of the transitioning if you weren’t. Not trying to be rude, just woke up and can’t word well yet.

Well I’m male. So that part is pretty obvious. But I prefer female sex characteristics and and deeply uncomfortable with male ones. I consider the social pressures of what it is to be a man to be a prescription for evil essentially and absolute anathema and strive to distance myself from them in every possible way. I feel more comfortable being referred to as a woman. I more easily understand and get along with women. I’m not afraid of women. I also do yes, tend to adhere substantially to the social prescriptions for women’s behavior but mostly because I don’t tend to mind the parts I do follow. That combination of factors and the fact that our society cannot abide an “other” leads me to think that woman is the best fit of all possible labels.

I understand the differences between anorexia and gender dysphoria- what j was asking is how can we trust that the gender identity of a trans person is accurate and true, as opposed to a side effect of a mental health issue?

Because identity isn’t a thing you can be wrong about, barring actual delusion. You are who you are mentally, because the mind is what we are. You can’t have a wrong identity unless it’s something like believe you are Napoleon. And as I’ve said there’s nothing delusional about dysphoria:

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well I’m male. So that part is pretty obvious. But I prefer female sex characteristics and and deeply uncomfortable with male ones. I consider the social pressures of what it is to be a man to be a prescription for evil essentially and absolute anathema and strive to distance myself from them in every possible way. I feel more comfortable being referred to as a woman. I more easily understand and get along with women. I’m not afraid of women. I also do yes, tend to adhere substantially to the social prescriptions for women’s behavior but mostly because I don’t tend to mind the parts I do follow. That combination of factors and the fact that our society cannot abide an “other” leads me to think that woman is the best fit of all possible labels.

This sounds like a bunch of sexist stereotypes. And running from ones you want to embrace opposite ones?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not embracing anything I didn’t already want. That’s the point.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

  1. That doesn’t really answer anything. I’m saying what makes a male saying they identify as a female something that they can even definitively know themselves? I understand that identity is personal- but femaleness or womanhood isn’t really a personal thing, it’s a state of being. So how can someone declare that they understand a literal opposite state of being well enough to identify into it? Feeling out of place in your body for whatever reason doesn’t (imo) mean that you have a sense of truly understanding a different type of body. And womanhood/femaleness is not a state of mind.

  2. So are you saying that with dysphoric patients, they skip all other issues they may have and focus on treating the dysphoria first? So for example, someone is dysphoric, has add/adhd, and bipolar disorder. Instead of treating the adhd and bipolar disorder first, it is set aside and dysphoria is dealt with first? So we don’t know if curing or dealing with any other mental disorders or past trauma etc could help with the dysphoria? (I’m not trying to make a point, this is honestly something I’ve been trying to understand for a while)

  3. So are you saying that you identify as a woman because you prefer the social constraints aced on women over the ones placed on males? (In addition you the discomfort you feel with being male and being referred to with male terminology?) and (please don’t get upset, again I’m trying to understand) does that mean that you identify more with the social concept of womanhood and what it means from your understanding/perspective, rather than what a female may consider womanhood to be, or what it literally/technically/definitively means to be a woman?

  4. How is identifying as something you are the literal opposite of accurate? This is what’s confusing to me- I don’t emotionally identify with anything I am, but I know I’m black, I know I’m American, I know I’m a woman. Because I fit the definitions of all of those words and it is biologically, legally, and physically etc true and accurate. I agree that when it fits facts, you are what your mind says you are- but if it’s categorically untrue, I don’t know that I believe you are something because you’re mind says it’s so. A severely mentally ill person with no diagnosis is still mentally ill, even if they don’t know it. A person who thinks they are fully white, but is mixed race and doesn’t know, will identify as white but still not be. There are other examples, but like- if Rachel Dolezal (the often used example) thinks she’s black, truly fully internally identifies as a black woman, how so that not true but it’s true for people with gender dysphoria? I used her because Despite believing she’s black, she took multiple steps to present herself as a black woman, because she knew she didn’t appear as one naturally. There doesn’t have to be delusion to incorrectly identify as something.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

  1. And I disagree. Fundamentally someone’s identity is their own so it’s not for me to decide who you are or you to decide who I am. I just think we fundamentally disagree here.

2 No. treat all in tandem. I’m just saying Don’t ignore dysphoria and treat other things. The dysphoria needs addressed as well

  1. It’s about the body most but ultimately it’s a combination of many things. It’s possible (though I doubt it) that I would identify as simply trans absent stigma or othering Beyond the binary roles. I can’t know. It feels like the best option on the whole as I’ve thought it thorugh if that makes sense.

  2. I don’t think woman is the opposite of male. That’s the core difference. I’m not saying I’m literally female. I’m saying I’m a woman because that makes the most sense and feels right for the way I am and the way I live. I think race is distinct since it’s, like sex, simple fact. But gender isn’t the same thing. Again I just thing we are working from fundamentally different definitions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

  1. What happens when one person’s sense of identity impacts other people? Or when one person’s sense of identity conflicts with the identity of others? How are they both accurate and true?

  2. Is it at all possible that dealing with the other issues first may help the dysphoria? If someone has sexual trauma for example, could dealing with and finding a way of treating that trauma possibly alleviate dysphoria?

  3. I guess I feel like I understand gender dysphoria leading to identifying as trans, but not the opposite sex/gender. Like- I can understand the idea of having dysphoria and wanting to transition and present physically as the opposite sex, what I don’t get is how that leads to identifying and claiming the “title” of woman/man I feel like the life experiences of a TW differ from that of a woman, and the life experiences of a tm differ from that of a man. So to me, a transwoman would be identifying as a man who has altered their appearance to resemble a woman, but would still just simply not be able to understand womanhood in a real way. Again, I’m not trying to argue or insult you, I’m just trying to articulate my thoughts. I just haven’t seen an argument for woman not being associated with being female that has made sense to me personally. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of “the woman gender”, and I haven’t been presented with a definition that doesn’t directly associate woman with female that makes sense. I agree that we are working from fundamentally different definitions, my issue is that only one of our definitions is universally understood. And that, any transwoman to every have existed had to figure out their identity with the universal understanding of “woman” yet somehow, they’ve changed that definition. Meaning, every step a TW takes to transition is a step to appear to have the female form. The female form is sexed, not gendered. It’s literally cross sex hormones, not cross gender, it’s replicating sexed feautures, not gendered. So how do we now say that woman is not attached to female, when female sex characteristics (not gendered characteristics) are what are being replicated? I guess I mean to say that, I struggle with seeing that TW are aware that they are altering themselves to appear female, the concern is “passing”- which doesn’t mean pass as a woman, it means pass as female, but then they detach woman from female. If males can be women, the only reason to transition is to alleviate dysphoria. Passing shouldn’t be a factor or concern, a TW would be a woman already, from birth (and there’d be a way of seeing that, through brain scans or something), and maybe need to transition to alleviate the discomfort, but I feel it’s contradictory to remove the idea of woman being female, but still seek a female form. What I’m saying is, to me, it’s either trans people are the sex/gender they claim from birth in some way we haven’t figured out yet, or they are people with dysphoria. I don’t see how it can be both.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Number 3 is a really good point. I don’t think you can connect being dysphoric to being a woman or man because of that. Growing up, for me, I believed I was really supposed to be a girl or that I was one inside because of how I was, but beliefs like that don’t really make sense or rely on sexist stereotypes (unless we actually found out it was in the brain or something, but there isn’t evidence that that is real). I don’t know if the dysphoria with my body would have existed the same without that because I can’t know what that would be like since that is how I felt. I feel like if someone says TWAW they have to believe some version of that because dysphoria wouldn’t make someone a woman.

Woman being tied to female the way trans people use it makes sense to me. I feel like if it wasn’t part of that they wouldn’t want the word to begin with and that’s why the TWAW people want to come for female too. Woman doesn’t make sense without it and if TWAW people managed to change it to just mean an identity, I feel like it would actually be really self-defeating for them. I don’t know if that makes sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

  1. You are the arbiter of your own identity. I can’t tell you who you are but you can’t tell me who I am either.

  2. I don’t believe dysphoria can be Solved without transitioning, especially in adults but I don’t think other conditions should be ignored either. Treat them all.

  3. Some points here, your definition isn’t universal because it excluded trans women and many people think trans women are women.

I don’t identify as a man who wants to change... because I don’t identify in any way, shape or form as a man. As I said maybe in a different world I might feel like some in between but never in any universe would I feel in any way connected to being a man. I can’t stress that enough.

Passing is important because people are shitty to trans people. I don’t hate not passing because I am desperate to not be seen as trans in a vaccume. Passing is desirable only because we are single out for abuse based on not passing. If society had no animus against us I probably wouldn’t mind my appearance as much and could enjoy the positive changes I’ve made to the things that used to bother me about my body. I’ve fixed the second characteristics that really bothered me. If I could just be an ugly person it would be so bad but society treats me as a freak because I don’t pass. That’s why passing matters.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You’re not addressing what I’m saying at all. This is incredibly contradictory to the idea of TWAW, and it feels extremely hypocritical. I don’t think we should continue this conversation, because if we do it’s gonna go how so many of our other ones went.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Then there must be a miscommunication somewhere because I believe I was addressing your points and was in no way hypocritical so one of us isn’t understanding the other.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You addressed nothing. You only explained how you see yourself. I’m not asking about you. A lot of what you’re saying is incredibly contradictory. I’ll come back later and maybe explain, I just need a break.

[–]yousaythosethings 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I can’t tell you who you are but you can’t tell me who I am either.

Who is allowed to tell Rachel Dolezal that she is white, not black?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I’m not going to bother to explain to you how race is different than gender. But this example is tired.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Then link me to where you've answered this question before. Presumably there are people who can tell Rachel she's not black, or no? Are there people who cannot? What determines which category someone falls into? How do I know which category I fall into?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Race isn’t gender. Also sex isn’t gender.

[–]BayHorseGender Critical 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (77 children)

Why is it wrong for someone to believe that they're Napoleon but it's fine for males to believe they're women? Both of those are physically impossible.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (76 children)

The person is delusional in thinking they are Napoleon. The trans person isn’t delusion they just are using a different definition than you.

[–]BayHorseGender Critical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (75 children)

In one of the above commentaries, you've said :

A trans person (absent other conditions) properly percieves their body. That body just makes them uncomfortable and they have realized the body that would make them more comfortable. It’s not a delusion that in some divine ephemeral sense that they are actually a woman and this body is a lie, it’s an understanding that this broken car is broken and knowing how to fix it.

What if said person does know that they're not physically Napoleon, but they feel they should be, because else their body makes them uncomfortable? Why is that delusional, but a man knowing he should have a woman's body isn't?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (74 children)

If they don’t literally think they are Napoleon then it isn’t delusion, just preference or fixation. They can change their name and get plastic surgery. They can dress in that style where possible. Why not?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (73 children)

And that would make them Napoleon Bonaparte? Or would that make them someone who altered their appearance to look like him?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (72 children)

If they changed their name to Napoleon boneparte they would literally be Napoleon boneparte. Whether they were crazy or just odd is determined then by whether the believe they are literally the historical figure of the person they have made themselves into from where they were.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (71 children)

Sure, they can legally change their name. But you’re well aware that I’m asking you if that would make them the actual Napoleon Bonaparte that they identified with? So would this person who has surgically altered their appearance to resemble a famous historical figure actually be that figure? Or would they be someone who took drastic steps to resemble them? Clearly, we are saying that this person identifies as the actual man, Napoleon. Because, you would have to think that this person is literally Napoleon to say TWAW. Otherwise, there’s contradiction allover.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

That specific person? No it’s an individual so obviously not the Napoleon boneparte but A Napoleon boneparte.