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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

  1. And I disagree. Fundamentally someone’s identity is their own so it’s not for me to decide who you are or you to decide who I am. I just think we fundamentally disagree here.

2 No. treat all in tandem. I’m just saying Don’t ignore dysphoria and treat other things. The dysphoria needs addressed as well

  1. It’s about the body most but ultimately it’s a combination of many things. It’s possible (though I doubt it) that I would identify as simply trans absent stigma or othering Beyond the binary roles. I can’t know. It feels like the best option on the whole as I’ve thought it thorugh if that makes sense.

  2. I don’t think woman is the opposite of male. That’s the core difference. I’m not saying I’m literally female. I’m saying I’m a woman because that makes the most sense and feels right for the way I am and the way I live. I think race is distinct since it’s, like sex, simple fact. But gender isn’t the same thing. Again I just thing we are working from fundamentally different definitions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

  1. What happens when one person’s sense of identity impacts other people? Or when one person’s sense of identity conflicts with the identity of others? How are they both accurate and true?

  2. Is it at all possible that dealing with the other issues first may help the dysphoria? If someone has sexual trauma for example, could dealing with and finding a way of treating that trauma possibly alleviate dysphoria?

  3. I guess I feel like I understand gender dysphoria leading to identifying as trans, but not the opposite sex/gender. Like- I can understand the idea of having dysphoria and wanting to transition and present physically as the opposite sex, what I don’t get is how that leads to identifying and claiming the “title” of woman/man I feel like the life experiences of a TW differ from that of a woman, and the life experiences of a tm differ from that of a man. So to me, a transwoman would be identifying as a man who has altered their appearance to resemble a woman, but would still just simply not be able to understand womanhood in a real way. Again, I’m not trying to argue or insult you, I’m just trying to articulate my thoughts. I just haven’t seen an argument for woman not being associated with being female that has made sense to me personally. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of “the woman gender”, and I haven’t been presented with a definition that doesn’t directly associate woman with female that makes sense. I agree that we are working from fundamentally different definitions, my issue is that only one of our definitions is universally understood. And that, any transwoman to every have existed had to figure out their identity with the universal understanding of “woman” yet somehow, they’ve changed that definition. Meaning, every step a TW takes to transition is a step to appear to have the female form. The female form is sexed, not gendered. It’s literally cross sex hormones, not cross gender, it’s replicating sexed feautures, not gendered. So how do we now say that woman is not attached to female, when female sex characteristics (not gendered characteristics) are what are being replicated? I guess I mean to say that, I struggle with seeing that TW are aware that they are altering themselves to appear female, the concern is “passing”- which doesn’t mean pass as a woman, it means pass as female, but then they detach woman from female. If males can be women, the only reason to transition is to alleviate dysphoria. Passing shouldn’t be a factor or concern, a TW would be a woman already, from birth (and there’d be a way of seeing that, through brain scans or something), and maybe need to transition to alleviate the discomfort, but I feel it’s contradictory to remove the idea of woman being female, but still seek a female form. What I’m saying is, to me, it’s either trans people are the sex/gender they claim from birth in some way we haven’t figured out yet, or they are people with dysphoria. I don’t see how it can be both.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Number 3 is a really good point. I don’t think you can connect being dysphoric to being a woman or man because of that. Growing up, for me, I believed I was really supposed to be a girl or that I was one inside because of how I was, but beliefs like that don’t really make sense or rely on sexist stereotypes (unless we actually found out it was in the brain or something, but there isn’t evidence that that is real). I don’t know if the dysphoria with my body would have existed the same without that because I can’t know what that would be like since that is how I felt. I feel like if someone says TWAW they have to believe some version of that because dysphoria wouldn’t make someone a woman.

Woman being tied to female the way trans people use it makes sense to me. I feel like if it wasn’t part of that they wouldn’t want the word to begin with and that’s why the TWAW people want to come for female too. Woman doesn’t make sense without it and if TWAW people managed to change it to just mean an identity, I feel like it would actually be really self-defeating for them. I don’t know if that makes sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

  1. You are the arbiter of your own identity. I can’t tell you who you are but you can’t tell me who I am either.

  2. I don’t believe dysphoria can be Solved without transitioning, especially in adults but I don’t think other conditions should be ignored either. Treat them all.

  3. Some points here, your definition isn’t universal because it excluded trans women and many people think trans women are women.

I don’t identify as a man who wants to change... because I don’t identify in any way, shape or form as a man. As I said maybe in a different world I might feel like some in between but never in any universe would I feel in any way connected to being a man. I can’t stress that enough.

Passing is important because people are shitty to trans people. I don’t hate not passing because I am desperate to not be seen as trans in a vaccume. Passing is desirable only because we are single out for abuse based on not passing. If society had no animus against us I probably wouldn’t mind my appearance as much and could enjoy the positive changes I’ve made to the things that used to bother me about my body. I’ve fixed the second characteristics that really bothered me. If I could just be an ugly person it would be so bad but society treats me as a freak because I don’t pass. That’s why passing matters.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You’re not addressing what I’m saying at all. This is incredibly contradictory to the idea of TWAW, and it feels extremely hypocritical. I don’t think we should continue this conversation, because if we do it’s gonna go how so many of our other ones went.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Then there must be a miscommunication somewhere because I believe I was addressing your points and was in no way hypocritical so one of us isn’t understanding the other.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You addressed nothing. You only explained how you see yourself. I’m not asking about you. A lot of what you’re saying is incredibly contradictory. I’ll come back later and maybe explain, I just need a break.

[–]yousaythosethings 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I can’t tell you who you are but you can’t tell me who I am either.

Who is allowed to tell Rachel Dolezal that she is white, not black?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I’m not going to bother to explain to you how race is different than gender. But this example is tired.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Then link me to where you've answered this question before. Presumably there are people who can tell Rachel she's not black, or no? Are there people who cannot? What determines which category someone falls into? How do I know which category I fall into?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Race isn’t gender. Also sex isn’t gender.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

OK cool so explain where the analogies break down. Race and gender are both social constructs tied to the physical/biological.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Gender isn’t tied to the biological. It’s social and personal. Race is an artificial construct but one with a biological basis or at least an “apparent” one.

[–]yousaythosethings 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You think nothing about gender, including the idea of women being expected to be caretakers is related to women's unique ability to grow life within our bodies and nourish that life from our bodies immediately after birth?