GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I didn’t really to you directly because you’ve made it perfectly clear you don’t want to have a discussion just insult me. But fine.

You deserve and fucking have rights

We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.

Stop. Putting. Words. In my mouth.

I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it. How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?

You are, as usual, overreaching. This means that if you have dysphoria- you get to transition physically. Reading comprehension is truly fundamental.

That’s not clear at all from what they wrote and the contrary is implied.

You don’t get to force other people to subscribe to your belief system.

We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse. Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.

Do we not have the right to freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech is from government action.

A world that recognizes reality, allows females to have equal rights, and doesn’t force others to conform to a specific way of thinking? How awful.

A world where I was subject to wanton discrimation, harassment, And having no recourse to stop any of it. A world where I was legally forced to call myself the most heinous thing I could be called. A world where I couldn’t go anywhere because it would be illegal to go in any public necessary space that wasn’t a deathtrap. Yeah I would rather be dead that to have to call myself a man and have to do nothing while others did not that I would see anyone because I couldn’t leave the house.

If this is your thinking sober, please don’t give up on it. I can’t imagine how badly you’d twist other people’s words if you weren’t thinking clearly.

Making fun of my sobriety is over the line.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

“We don’t have rights. That’s kind of the problem.”

Here we go with martyr masks. You do have rights. Why do you always act as if you don’t?

“I literally quoted you just above the like you quoted. Then interpreted it.”

You took my words and placed an entirely different meaning on them. Made them about something I wasn’t even referring to in that moment.

“How else could one interpret a statement about rights for “half the population” being more important that rights of a smaller group exactly?”

This is why reading comprehension is crucial.

Peaking- I feel like sometimes GC just looks at all trans people like crossdressers and just think that you are just wearing certain clothes and starting wearing other clothes or changed your hair people would see you as your sex again, but I don’t think it’s that simple for everyone

Sloane- The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld

You- sLoaNe dOesN’t wAnT uS to HaVe rIgHtS BeCauSe wE’rE jUsT A mInoRiTy (even though I’m considered a fucking minority in multiple ways 🙄)

We weren’t talking about rights- yes I referenced them, I also clarified to you what I meant by referencing them. The “not that simple” is about it not being so simple to go back- never said people had to detransition, said of things aren’t “so simple” I don’t care- I care about the rights of half the world over the complications that males not being able to undermine them may face. Doesn’t mean you don’t get to have rights- means you don’t get to erase mine.

“That’s not clear at all from what they wrote and the contrary is implied.”

Yet another reason that reading comprehension skills are extremely important. But I think you do understand and your need to present as the victim made you pretend you didn’t. Since you quoted them saying that dysphoric individuals get the treatment to alleviate their symptoms (that’s literally all you quoted from there- like, come on). The only thing is that others aren’t obligated to play a part in it.

“We would have to be subject to constant insult and harassment with no recourse.”

No. You wouldn’t. Being called pronouns that are factual is not harassment. Not pretending we think sex can change or males can be women is not harassment. You used to be a lawyer, you should know this. Compelling speech may not be harassment- it’s not okay to do. And that’s what you push for. But I’m wrong?

“Imagine a workplace where someone could call you the most heinous thing you could conceive of and there was absolutely nothing you could do about it.”

I’d say then that individuals who can’t handle being referred to with biologically accurate terms should receive counseling and be advised on how to cope with that difficulty. You don’t get to force people to play along. Others feel just as strongly about not playing along as you do about forcing them to. Every reason you have for justifying forcing it, we have for justifying being allowed to speak honestly.

“Freedom of speech is from government action.”

So... do you respect people having the right to speak as they wish or not? I know what freedom of speech is.

“A world where I was subject to wanton discrimation, harassment, And having no recourse to stop any of it.”

Do you honestly not understand that other people (non trans) also have this issue? Also- if you need the whole world to gaslight themselves and lie to you daily to be okay(those other people I mentioned don’t expect or demand tho and still have this same issue btw)- do you really think that’s reasonable?

“A world where I was legally forced to call myself the most heinous thing I could be called.”

you think being called a male/man is more heinous than being called a murderer? A pedophile? A rapist? A racist? An idiot? Any of the many slurs and offensive terms that people call each other? Seriously? Fucking seriously? (And no I’m not calling you these things, these are examples of actual heinous or cruel things people can be called)

“A world where I couldn’t go anywhere because it would be illegal to go in any public necessary space that wasn’t a deathtrap.”

No. Just no. Allowing females to have safe spaces doesn’t make all necessary public spaces a death trap. Please stop trying to guilt trip women into sacrificing their rights for you.

“Yeah I would rather be dead that to have to call myself a man and have to do nothing while others did”

Then call yourself a transwoman. Most people would also. No one said the term “transwoman” would be erased (I even clarified that. Funny how you left that part out).

“not that I would see anyone because I couldn’t leave the house.”

That’s your personal choice. Idgaf.

“Making fun of my sobriety is over the line”

Undermining my rights is over the line. Compelling my speech is over the line. Misrepresentation to get your way is over the line.

You sure you wanna open this door and talk about one of us crossing a line? Because I can recall many a time when you crossed several lines.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You do have rights. Why do you always act as if you don’t?

Because we don’t. We have tenuous employment protections finally but those will be overturned any time once trump gives the conservatives on the bench a 6-3 now that Ginsburg is gone. We have no other applications of the civil rights act formally applied. By executive order we can be denied even emergency medical care simply for being trans. We have no housing discrimination rights. If I were arrested tomorrow I would be put in a men’s lockup and I could ask for but had no garuantee of solitary confinement as the only protective option. I don’t know what rights you think trans people have, but we have basically no protections of any kind.

The rights of half the population matter more to me than the outcome for trans people if those rights are upheld

I don’t care- I care about the rights of half the world over the complications that males not being able to undermine them may face.

That’s you saying your rights are more important. Expressly. How can you argue otherwise?

Since you quoted them saying that dysphoric individuals get the treatment to alleviate their symptoms (that’s literally all you quoted from there- like, come on). The only thing is that others aren’t obligated to play a part in it.

And that could easily be read as psychiatric care with no transition. They’ve clarified it’s not the case at this point but the statement sounded like an innuendo for the Typical “therapy not hormones” line that comes through here. I was mistaken.

No. You wouldn’t. Being called pronouns that are factual is not harassment. Not pretending we think sex can change or males can be women is not harassment.

Yes it is. Harassment doesn’t need to be sexual. Calling me a manly man every time you see me and seeing out excuses to call me a man when you know it makes me deeply uncomfortable is in fact workplace harassment and as they’ve laid out there would be nothing I could do about it but quit and hope I could find another job where I wasn’t harassed,

I’d say then that individuals who can’t handle being referred to with biologically accurate terms should receive counseling and be advised on how to cope with that difficulty. You don’t get to force people to play along. Others feel just as strongly about not playing along as you do about forcing them to. Every reason you have for justifying forcing it, we have for justifying being allowed to speak honestly.

And neutral address or asking that we be separated and not forced to interact to hr should be something I can ask for. The system they laid out wouldn’t allow that.

So... do you respect people having the right to speak as they wish or not? I know what freedom of speech is.

I’m not saying it should be illegal to misgender but I also don’t want it to be speech protected from Private employer action in The workplace.

Do you honestly not understand that other people (non trans) also have this issue?

Our society has generally given those people legal recourse. Sometimes it’s less effective than ideal but they at least can try. We wouldn’t in the system they laid out.

you think being called a male/man is more heinous than being called a murderer? A pedophile? A rapist? A racist? An idiot? Any of the many slurs and offensive terms that people call each other? Seriously? Fucking seriously?

No one could believe I was a pedophile, rapist or murderer. I’ve factually never done those things. If they accused me of that and it caused harm I’d have access to a slander claim to sue.

I would find being called a man more insulting than being called an idiot.

Racist is tricky because I probably do have some racist beliefs somewhere since I’m white and raised in this society. Like I tend to find light skinned black men more attractive than any other men which could be considered fetishizing. On that level am I a racist? I don’t know. I hope not but that’s not really up to me to decide.

No. Just no. Allowing females to have safe spaces doesn’t make all necessary public spaces a death trap. Please stop trying to guilt trip women into sacrificing their rights for you.

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

Undermining my rights is over the line. Compelling my speech is over the line. Misrepresentation to get your way is over the line.

I’m not undermining your rights or misrepresenting you. And I’ve made clear I’m not advocating for compelled speech.

You want to come at my arguments be my guest but it is every kind of inappropriate to mock someone’s sobriety.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I can’t go into a men’s bathroom safely. That’s just the way it is. Since there aren’t a lot of neutral restrooms, yeah it kind of does.

If you go into the women's room, since women are the oppressed sex category and mixed-sex spaces effectively become "male" dominated because of the power dynamics between male and female people, you would be turning that restroom into a male restroom by default.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Except men wouldn’t go in.

[–]IceColdLover 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You have to understand when I say "men" I mean all biological males, whether they identify as men or not. I will call you, if I see you in person by what you ask me to call you because you have had the systematic power to ensure I must otherwise my life becomes hell on earth if I don't. All males have privilege over females by virtue of being born male in a society that privileges maleness.

I am fine with calling you a transwoman, if you really do not want to be referred to as a man, since you are a transwoman, but to me you'll never be just a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man. I don’t mind being called trans women generally but Espescially since I don’t pass do stealth isn’t an option but I do consider myself a woman.

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We don’t have any systemic power. At best we’ve fostered enough sympathy that people feel bad enough to generally support us but it isn’t about power. Because that could change in sympathies of the people who have power.

You have fostered enough sympathy amongst people with systematic power, but the impact of this is that it is being forced from the top down on everyone else. What this means is that the VAST majority of women, and men for that matter do not consider you a woman in any meaningful way but are being forced to say they do because of threat to their livelihood. I was about to ask if this makes you feel wrong in any way for suppressing others' speech and forcing them to lie but then I realized of course not.

There is nothing I consider more an insult than being called a man.

If that is the worst thing someone could call you then what you really need isn't estrogen, it is therapy. I would suspect that men have mistreated you in ways that have traumatized you and you need closure, or there is something else going on mentally. I am saying this out of compassion.

I would call you a trans woman, not a woman. If that isn't good enough for trans women in general well it's the most I am willing to bend.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

What this means is that the VAST majority of women, and men for that matter do not consider you a woman in any meaningful way but are being forced to say they do because of threat to their livelihood.

I don’t think that’s true. The majority of people are okay with us. Though a substantial minority aren’t. Hence the need for protections.

If that is the worst thing someone could call you then what you really need isn't estrogen, it is therapy.

Where do you all get the idea that we don’t get therapy before and during transition?

I would suspect that men have mistreated you in ways that have traumatized you

I mean you aren’t wrong but that’s not surprising. Because men are as a group evil. There’s a reason I can never be comfortable alone with a cis man.

I don’t mind being called a trans woman as long as the implication isn’t that I’m a man.

[–]IceColdLover 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t think that’s true. The majority of people are okay with us. Though a substantial minority aren’t. Hence the need for protections.

I am "okay" with trans women as in I respect your dignity as a human being and I would be kind to you if you are kind to me. I just don't consider you a woman.

I mean you aren’t wrong but that’s not surprising. Because men are as a group evil. There’s a reason I can never be comfortable alone with a cis man. I don’t mind being called a trans woman as long as the implication isn’t that I’m a man.

As mentioned above I am fine with acknowledging you as a third category, not a man but also not a woman. I think "trans" should be a separate category altogether, and I don't even have an issue using "she" and "her" (as long as it is not legally mandated) but I don't consider you a woman. A trans woman, yes, not a woman.