GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

You wouldn' t be listed as a man, you would be listed as a trans woman. Which is what you are.

As for dysphoria, if your dysphoria is triggered by having a TW on your documents, then you need better therapy.

Passing or not, they would have protections.

Not calling me a man isn’t compelled speech.

If the law says that nobody can call you a man, then yes, it is compelled speech.

harassed by a transphobe

Harrassing and calling a male "he" are not the same thing. I know you disagree, but you are wrong.

For transition. Having it considered cosmetic makes it far less accessible since nothing would be covered by insurance and it would be potentially exempted from things like fmla or workplace sick policies.

It would, however, be normalized enough that prices would eventually go down. When I was a child it was prohibitive to have cosmetic surgery, now it doesn' t really take much.

But whatever, if you prefer having it considered a medical problem, then I guess only the people who are diagnosed with dysphoria would get it. Problem is, the gatekeeping for it would be much harder than it is now, so I am prettuy sure more people would be able to transition with it being considered cosmetic surgery than it being considered a legitimate medical need.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

Passing or not, they would have protections.

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over. Or a loan officer from tossing a sex: TW application in the bin. Or a gang of toughs jumping a trans woman in a bar who had to show her license and someone commented on.

I don’t pass so it’s moot for me. But it’s not just about me. There are trans women who have the potential to live normal lives out there.

Problem is, the gatekeeping for it would be much harder than it is now, so I am prettuy sure more people would be able to transition with it being considered cosmetic surgery than it being considered a legitimate medical need.

I don’t believe that’s true. Most trans women are quite poor. Certainly too poor to afford uncovered surgery. I know I never could have.

[–]IceColdLover 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over.

You speak as if the majority of trans women can pass. If a cop pulled over the average trans woman, even if their documentation said "female" or "woman" the cop would still know in 90% of cases it is a trans woman and the reaction would be the same.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t know whether the majority do or not but some do and that’s enough reason to raise concern.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Those protections won’t stop a cop from beating a trans women who had the nerve to be attractive when they get pulled over. Or a loan officer from tossing a sex: TW application in the bin. Or a gang of toughs jumping a trans woman in a bar who had to show her license and someone commented on.

Same goes for non passing trans people, though. Those things can happen. The system is not and will never be perfect.

I don’t pass so it’s moot for me. But it’s not just about me. There are trans women who have the potential to live normal lives out there.

By screwing women over.

I don’t believe that’s true. Most trans women are quite poor. Certainly too poor to afford uncovered surgery. I know I never could have.

Under the gatekeeping in that world, you probably wouldn' t have counted as someone eligible for medical transition. So sure, the surgery would have costed less/nothing, but you wouldn' t have been allowed to get it anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Under the gatekeeping in that world, you probably wouldn' t have counted as someone eligible for medical transition. So sure, the surgery would have costed less/nothing, but you wouldn' t have been allowed to get it anyway.

That’s a pretty bold claim. I had noted persistent body dysphoria to a medically significant level of distress, a certainty in identity. The only problem is I don’t pass and couldn’t which some of the old doctors would have denied transition under but that’s well gone the wayside.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I don' t doubt that you have body dysphoria. What I meant is that the gatekeeping I would allow would require for no social dysphoria as well. In short, only people with only body dysphoria would be allowed to get the surgery/hormones. Because if the problem is that you hate your body, then it makes sense that you find a way to change it (I disagree that it' s a good way to go, but I can see why certain people would and I would accept it), but if you hate the social status you have, then allowing medical procedures to fit in better is unethical and regressive.

I would also require a way to prove that it' s an objective diagnosis, which means that psychological evaluation would probably not be enough.

As far as I remember, you have always stated that one of the biggest reasons you want to be considered a woman is that you hate the category of men and don' t want to be associated with it: that would be considered a social issue and would work against you in gaining the possibility of medically transitioning.

That' s why I said I would prefer for it to be considered a cosmetic surgery and that the number of people allowed to transition would be higher in that case: I think it' s pretty impossible to find a person who only has body dysphoria and wasn' t affected by society/sex roles/stereotypes/socialization. That would mean that virtually no person would be allowed to transition, you included.

On the other hand, as I said, cosmetic surgery would eventually drop its prices, allowing way more people to get it.

[–]IceColdLover 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What I meant is that the gatekeeping I would allow would require for no social dysphoria as well.

I didn't even think of this when making my list above but I agree with it. People with social dysphoria around gender roles should not be given hormones nor therapy, which are medical treatments, for something that is a social and societal issue.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Therapy would probably be a good idea. It is something that people with social problems would benefit from regardless of why they have those problems.

Of course it wouldn' t be of the affirming kind: it wouldn' t be the "yes, if you feel bad being a boy, it' s because you' re a girl", it owuld be the "you feel bad being a boy because boys are described a certain way and you don' t recognize yourself into it: now let' s talk about how there are many ways to be a boy, including yours".

I mean, you have therapy for literally anything, sometimes people just need to vent or discuss stuff with someone who won' t really judge them. So I think it should be allowed and that it would be helpful.

But hormones and surgery? Absolutely not. There' s a huge difference between having conversations about your problems and getting freaking surgery that you don' t physically need because of a social problem. It' s nonsense.

[–]IceColdLover 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with this completely.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

That makes no sense. I could see social dysphoria as insufficient but having it as a bar makes no sense. It would be like saying a depressed person couldn’t have antidepressants because they also had an eating disorder.

Either way your proposal would leave most trans people completely unable to access transition. Let’s say bottom surgery drops 2/3 in price. How many trans women do you think can scratch up 10k? I know of none. I know I couldn’t.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Why does it make no sense? If gender is a social construct, then the solution to make these people happy is to change the social construct, not allowing them to get surgery and make the social problem even worse. If I am in charge of making decisions of this kind, then I need to think about society as well, not just trans people.

Allowing individuals to transition because they have social issues (such as preferring clothes associated with the other sex) means that they are things (talking about the social issues here) that make sense and that the only way to go is to accept them. That we can' t change them, so we should change the people who disagree with those issues. That' s not something I am willing to do. That' s not a GC way to go, and since we are talking about a GC world, it makes no sense that it would be accepted and allowed.

Similarly if you hate men because men are terrible and the tropes associated with them disgust you, the last thing to do is say "you are right those tropes are legitimate, so if you don' t like them you should totally get invasive surgery and voilà!!!!!! Problem solved!!!!". Not gonna happen.

Let’s say bottom surgery drops 2/3 in price. How many trans women do you think can scratch up 10k? I know of none. I know I couldn’t.

I think plenty of them could do it, just not immediately. They would have to wait until they have the money, just like any other person who wants cosmetic surgery because they hate their bodies. I don' t see why trans people should get a preferential treatment here.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Similarly if you hate men because men are terrible and the tropes associated with them disgust you, the last thing to do is say "you are right those tropes are legitimate, so if you don' t like them you should totally get invasive surgery and voilà!!!!!! Problem solved!!!!". Not gonna happen.

It is noteworthy that trans people often say they are not placing men and women into stereotypical boxes, but it almost invariably boils down to having some preconceived notion, on their part, of what "men" and "women" are as discrete, non-overlapping social categories based on sex stereotypes, and wanting to opt out of the one assigned to them. And I agree with them, no one should have to be part of a social category based on sex stereotypes, those should not exist at all.

In my world, "men" and "women" are medical categories based on biological sex alone which determine nothing more than who can access which spaces. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want this world unless they get some sort of thrill from dressing as/being viewed as the other sex.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, I agree. It' s almost always about enforcing dangerous and toxic sex based roles and stereotypes.

If I am in charge, I am not going to include that in the gatekeeping. It just makes the social issues worse, and that' s the last thing we should do.

Of course I can' t dictate, nor I want to dictate, how people think, speak and behave, so if anyone wants to enforce that crap they are free to do it. But that' s not the same as making an official and legal statement about how the aformentioned crap is the true way and anyone who disagrees with it is entitled to surgery.

A woman who wants to transition because "women are weak and listen how much I roar" is just saying that women cannot be strong and that the only possible thing to do is to pretend she' s a man. Because men are strong!!! Yeah, no GCer would accept it and facilitate it.

[–]IceColdLover 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you entirely. If others want to follow gender roles have at it, but the legal recognition of adherence or lack thereof as the cornerstone of a separate identity which we are all legally bound to accept and embrace, is something I see as an infringement on women's rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Why does it make no sense? If gender is a social construct, then the solution to make these people happy is to change the social construct, not allowing them to get surgery and make the social problem even worse. If I am in charge of making decisions of this kind, then I need to think about society as well, not just trans people.

Which can be argued for people with ONLY social dysphoria but using it as a bar to people with both leaves physical dysphoria untreated and Unadressed. It’s indefensible.

I think plenty of them could do it, just not immediately. They would have to wait until they have the money, just like any other person who wants cosmetic surgery because they hate their bodies. I don' t see why trans people should get a preferential treatment here.

Most trans people would never have 10k. Hell most people will never. People live paycheck to paycheck. 10000 is literally more money that I will ever have.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Which can be argued for people with ONLY social dysphoria but using it as a bar to people with both leaves physical dysphoria untreated and Unadressed. It’s indefensible.

I guess an evaluation about whether the two things are linked could be made. For example, if your body dysphoria came after your realization that you hate men. It if came after or because of it, then surgery wouldn' t be allowed. Otherwise maybe it could be. A case by case basis.

Most trans people would never have 10k. Hell most people will never. People live paycheck to paycheck. 10000 is literally more money that I will ever have.

Lots of people desperately want cosmetic surgery without being able to get it. As I said, I don' t see why trans people should have a preferential treatment over them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Because dysphoria is a crippling condition that interferes with living a functional life.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I feel like as someone who transitioned further back than most people here, insurance covering surgery is a new thing. I had to save money for it and so did everyone near my age I knew (some of those middle age transitioners with established careers could afford it, but tbh, I don’t even consider us the same thing). It meant I had to delay into my 20s and delay going to college to be able to afford it (and also traveling to Thailand where it was a little more affordable, although I feel like it also might be better there because of some of the horror stories I’ve read). I’m just not sure it’s right to force other people to pay for it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It’s a necessary medical procedure so it should be covered by insurance. The only reason I could afford it was partial coverage by insurance. I still went into substantial medical debt but otherwise it just would never have happened.

Can you really not see how horrible it is to have someone trapped with that thing just because they are poor?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I’m not saying it isn’t really hard. I hated having to wait and it was so, so tough to date before I had surgery. I wasn’t rich and was barely surviving at points sleeping in other people sofas. I just feel like it shouldn’t be something we force other people to pay for because it’s controversial. I feel like it makes people resent us if we forced them to support our issues.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Are metrics more important than treating dysphoria? It’s a necessary procedure so insurance should cover it, just like birth control should be covered even though some people don’t like it.

Without Insurance I could never have had surgery. It broke me financially just to get an orchi that was about 10 percent of the price of my eventual bottom surgery.

I’m not worried about dating since that’s not a thing for me but it’s about peace with your own body.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That seems like an excessively high bar to me, too.

I think physical dysphoria should be a requirement, but social dysphoria should not be a disqualifier. Of course, in my ideal world, all trans people would be entitled to extensive therapy, free of charge, to help them examine what they feel might be causing those issues. If therapy helps to eradicate their social dysphoria, then obviously that's a good outcome. But if both types of dysphoria are still persisting and are severe enough to interfere with the ability to live a normal life, then transition should come up as an option.