Bernie Sanders Suggests Banning Vaping- Massive Damage Control and Media Blackout

Spud · 2020-01-08T00:58:39+00:00

Ok, I have one:

What he said was this, basically:

Vermont senator said, “The answer is, I think we shut down the industry if they’re causing addiction and if the evidence is that people are getting sick as a result or inhaling a lot of bad stuff.”

That's actually quite fair. He's got the answer qualified, if evidence people are getting sick from vaping itself, and or bad stuff in the vaping.

Fundamentally, the NHS and other health orgs are not anti-vaping for harm reduction reasons. The US is going bat shit for a lot of reasons, but a big one came out of THC vaping where the materials used to cut the product to increase margins are causing a lot of sickness.

There is some general ambiguity related to the small number of people who claimed to use nicotine vape only, and who knows on that?

Not calling for ban, and I very seriously doubt there is some massive blackout / coverup going on. Campaign clarifying is and did happen, and doing that makes sense given how politically, and unnecessarily the issue of vaping is charged right now.

There is some media blackout action on Sanders, this matter aside. Would be nice if that were not true.

Spud · 2020-01-07T23:35:32+00:00

Source?

Spud · 2020-01-06T22:14:09+00:00

This.

Dems, and maybe in this sense, "the left", are divided.

Berners are considered toxic to the party, ignored by media, and many party line Dems will smear and distract with "u r russian" BS, along with "u are why we have Trump" pretty much anytime there is a challenge from the left.

The divide is generally along economic lines too.

Big money has found out it can pretend to be "progressive" by favoring liberal social issues, sometimes to a fault. While at the same time, crushing the working class and poor economically.

Berniecrats, also say they are progressive, but are generally solid left economically. There are some harder lefties out there too, some like Bernie, but want more radical leftism. I digress.

The ones doing the censorship and general BS

Spud · 2020-01-06T22:06:56+00:00

I am not so sure about all that.

My experience has been the larger left communities on Reddit are definitely prone to favor establishment politics. Lots of people are saying progressive, then will proceed to slap an ugly "Russian agent" label, or attempt other intimidation against anyone challenging the party from the left

We may be talking past one another, hung up on labels too

Spud · 2020-01-06T16:53:33+00:00

I want to make something clear. When the author of the video says left-wing. When they say left-wing, they are talking about establishment Lefty types. Corporate-friendly types. And those people are dangerous. Progressives and other activists seeking to change the Party politics, aren't doxxing anyone.

I tend to call these people, big money leftists.

Spud · 2020-01-05T09:55:38+00:00

I am not going to do anything of the kind. Nobody that matters on the left is hating Americans. Besides, that doesn't really work. Never does.

What does work is being FOR things. Against type politics isn't doing any of us any favors you know.

People generally associated with the Sanders campaign aren't doing or about anything mentioned in the video. Won't be either.

What they are about is getting money out of politics, economic policy that gets right at that majority of Americans struggling right now, and in general, being good humans about it all.

You are right, I'm not far left. I'm left of center by any reasonable, global measure.

I also don't care what your politics are. I do care about advancing that policy, getting ordinary peeps a better scenario to work in / through.

This is all a priority discussion at the core. Do we want to squabble about who hates who, or do we want to make sure people can go see a doctor and do so without losing homes, loved ones, for example, and be around and healthy able to have the hate debate later?

That's a much nicer problem to have, in my view.

Spud · 2020-01-05T05:33:34+00:00

I don't buy many games right now. Gaming kind of moved away from me, as I moved away from where gaming is right now.

Still, when I'm going to play something, I buy. Happy to do it, but I'm not buying many of the problem titles right now.

For me, gaming began to rot with in game purchases, extra purchasable content, loot boxes, etc...

Gaming used to deliver a finished product. And there were exceptions as the multi-user type games showed up. Fine. Those make sense. We buy our client, pay our service fee, and get a world, other players, and all that good stuff. I am not talking about that form of gaming.

More like how just about all gaming has morphed into something like that kind of gaming. How fewer games are stand alone, complete things. It's like they ship some portion of it to start collecting $60, then ship the rest, some dollars a pop. Hate that. Vicerally.

More to the point here, people buy because they want to play. I guess I don't always want to, but when I do, it's about a good experience in exchange for some dollars.

I sometimes buy, then get the pirated version just so I can be sure it will work and that I can play it when / how I want.

Spud · 2020-01-05T05:09:01+00:00

Yeah, I hear a lot of that.

Those of us progressives, who are not at all into the emphasis on identity politics, tend to call those people "social justice warriors."

The way I see all that is as an over compensation. And it's not at all good.

Don't get me wrong. I am anti-discrimination. But I am equally anti-fear blame and shame type politics too. Take racism:

One can have two basic conversations along those lines, and one of those is "you are a racist!" Well, great. Now we've got a personal judgement out there, someone speaking to someone elses intent without any real insight to it, and any chance of a reasonable conversation shot to hell quick. Multiply that by a few decades, and yeah. There is a lot of anger, inability to communicate and with those things, basically no understanding others.

Understanding one another is super important, particularly now.

The other conversation avoids most of that and is sort of, "That could come off as racist..." and it's talking about the thing, impacts, not so much the person. And it sure as fuck doesn't doom someone right out of the gate.

What is notable is what can happen after the conversation. When the first one is had, people have to come back from something they may not even have intended in the first place! So, often they just don't. And they sure as hell don't want the ones judging them to be the ones they have to come back to, or admit acceptance or any other damn thing. Divisive, and it's everywhere.

With the second one, people can think it all over. If they make different choices going forward, great! Nobody even has to know. The world can just get better with more people presenting mutual respect and consideration more of the time. So much is organic too. It's not some formal thing, more like more people understanding one another better and with that can do better by one another.

Labels are hard. So many are using them too. Couple that with the fear, shame, blame labels, etc... and it's a mess. Way too many people check out, basically unable to have a nice conversation, or even a solid one, fair etc... so they just don't. Over time, that is all isolating in the democracy sense, and it leads to low turnout, and lots of other artifacts which leave the door open for growing unease, just a higher risk, higher cost, more difficult state of affairs.

There are many who have set aside this "left right" deal to get at things a different way, more focused on ideas, outcomes than people, conformity, blame. Frankly, it's not about what we did before, who we voted for, whatever. It's actually about those things about to happen, those choices we can make tomorrow.

Freedom from illness, or health care as human right are one example. Pretty much everyone, good, bad, whatever, needs to deal with medical things like all humans do. Many nations have sorted this out reasonably. People don't lose homes, go broke, file bankruptcy, nor put off things they should give attention to. It's an entirely different way of thinking. One can be poor, but not unhealthy, for example. Or one can be a small business owner not having to worry about sick people, or premiums pricing good people out of reach.

For that to work, it's gotta be an American conversation. I need to see the doctor, you need to see the doctor, how can we all see the doctor without all this damn carnage going on non stop?

And here's another thing those social justice warriors really don't like very much:

Other people just don't have to be nice, or step up. Gay people, for example, have had the benefit of a great many people standing for them. It's been more normalized and for more of those people, more of the time, in more places, life can be OK to really good. I want it good, to be who I am, others want it to be good, be who they are. Sort of makes sense.

But, that's been extended to some entitlement or other.

YOU HAVE TO DEFEND MY RIGHTS!

Really?

No I don't! I'm an ordinary, straight, white guy. I can absolutely not give a fuck. Now, I will give a fuck because of the above, wanting it good, not living lies, etc... so sure! I'm happy to toss in, carve out a space where more of us can live, laugh, love who we want to, but HAVE TO?

Line too far, if you ask me.

And whether someone agrees with that, and I'm totally open on that conversation, there is an even more galling thing!

That social progress has come at a pretty damn high cost. You've mentioned some of it. Economically, that cost is high too. By moving the focus so strongly toward social only policy, economic policy has not gotten a balanced representation at all.

Again, whether one agrees or not, here's my point:

Those same peeps who DEMAND and say WE MUST, won't lift a fucking finger when it's their turn to step up, take a little heat, do their less fortunate peers a solid. The same damn solid they DEMANDED of others.

I hate that shit.

Viscerally.

Which is why I come back to getting along. Understanding one another better. Where that's going on, I feel most of the issues, both social and economic, will sort out reasonably. That's what democracy does generally.

But when it's abused? It fails, and we've got a mess.

Spud · 2020-01-05T01:22:16+00:00

You are right! They did vote Trump!

As for the other things, no. You have me lumped in with some ugly people. Did, and have no plan to do any of those things.

By any reasonable global measure, progressives in the US are nowhere near hard left.

Spud · 2020-01-04T21:08:51+00:00

The "hard left" as seen by many in the highly insular USA, really aren't.

There is a hard left here, but it is nowhere close to where progressives are at right now.

Notice Bernie does not make virtue arguments? Or hardly any?

Look at Warren, Biden, others. They all make them as if they somehow have something in their nature the others do not.

The movement with Bernie is doing a very specific thing not seen in politics here for a long time, and that is making a call for those impacted by economic policy over the last several decades to get involved more directly in the political process.

Quit asking, essentially. I have a sub here /notasking that is about that concept.

Start doing.

Thomas Paine outlined the basis for self governance and where the authority comes from in "Rights of Man" and "Age of Reason."

Basically, we are better able to maximize our personal freedom with governance than without.

When that is no longer true, there is unrest.

Doing it our way means a reasonable transition back closer to that better place.

Or, there is France on Strike, other nations in violence, or another force moves in, etc...

Many moderates are doing OK under these policies. Problem is a majority of the US is not.

So, our answer is to become government and bring better balance.

Had the ruling peeps done better, we would not be here.

Just saying... its more nuanced than often presented.

Spud · 2020-01-04T20:38:27+00:00

So true. Tech has exploded! And there is a ton of churn. Pretty much impossible for one person to do it all, unless they are in some limited domain or other.

I like embedded systems, do lots with close to the metal code, or some higher level thing.

When I look at web facing development? It is just big now. Bigger than when I left systems engineering in the late 00's.

Security is, always has been risk / reward management at best.

But damn, "good as it gets" is damn tough to understand and actualize.

Thanks for the work you and others (I don't know) have done here. It's a non trivial thing.

Spud · 2020-01-04T04:34:57+00:00

Truth.

Well, I am not sure about all sites being CIA...

But, the Internet doesn't forget. My first words put on it in 91 were easily found well into the 10's.

They are in some archive somewhere still.

Never put anything online that you cannot live with.

Spud · 2020-01-04T04:29:15+00:00

ABBA is going to do this. Will produce a few new songs, package those up with the classic hits and deliver shows using virtual performers styled from their iconic earlier years.

Spud · 2020-01-04T04:27:14+00:00

My older son is black. Was very illuminating as he grew up.

Profiled so many times and treated much differently too.

Cannot tell you the number of times I showed up, white, working professional, only to see them begin to stammer and walk shit back, caught being shitty dead to rights.

Spud · 2020-01-04T04:24:58+00:00

Nope. Not due to some inherent part of their nature.

Anyone socioeconomically struggling is more likely to do crime.

Black people are still discriminated against and likely to be born to poverty more than others.

Spud · 2020-01-04T04:22:01+00:00

This one is hilarious! Little Bobby Tables! Brilliant.

Always fun when smart people do not think it all through... oops!

Spud · 2020-01-02T07:45:44+00:00

Well, do you want to:

Cherry pick horror stories

, or

Talk about the Tories currently working double overtime to hobble the NHS, in a manner not unlike the ones used here to do the same to the Post Office, so private interests have the UK to start cherry picking and price gouging for captive audience type profits?

, or

Compare the basic performance, outcomes, cost of various single payer / universal type systems with the worse ones ours has ACROSS THE BOARD?

Fact is, if one is wealthy, medical tourism can make a lot of sense. M4A will bot change that either except to make it so more Americans can actually take care of it here instead of going to Mexico, and elsewhere abroad.

Another fact is very wealthy people can get very advanced care here sans longer wait times. For a few of us, this is a big deal, and guess what? M4A does not change that!

Here is another brutal fact: millions of Americans have super long, as in they cannot afford to even see the doctor, type waits. Many die each year from entirely preventable things, because cost.

Those of us with wealth sufficient to tap basically unlimited care is very small. None of that is germane to the discussion.

Those of us able to do medical tourism is a larger slice of the nation, say 25 percent tops. Same deal.

Bernie style Medicare For All will be a very significant net gain in breadth of coverage while also dramatically reducing cost and risk exposure. For less of an annual spend, dental, vision, medical, hearing.

Yes, take away increasingly diluted coverage for Better COVERAGE!

That is YUGE!

Overall, for the nation, it will put our costs per person much closer in line with the rest of the modern world too. This is crippling our economy. Big.

What you see right now is not sustainable. We pay 2x the second most expensive systems in the world, and deliver WORSE outcomes!

For that exhorbent expense, 30 to 40 million are not insured at all. A good 100 ish million are embarrassingly under insured, and some 500k people per year go bankrupt, and 40k die related to under insurance and or having no insurance.

Cost escalation today outpaces wage growth (what little there is), and inflation by many multiples. Same goes for drug pricing on an increasing number of important medications.

Every other system has meaningful cost controls and with few exceptions makes fixing sick and hurt people the priority.

We make making money the priority. And our increasingly noncompetitive outcomes, insane cost growth, underinsured population, etc... show all that very clearly.

Almost everyone on private plans right now is seeing, or their employer is having to write larger checks each year for increasingly diluted coverage. Delays in the form of painful preauthorizations, denials, exceptions to coverage, narrower covered medication sets, higher co pays, fees, etc...

I know. I have had to write those checks, or take it out of employee pay, or charge customers more, etc...

And that is if they even get the same plan. A great many don't, just get stuck with whatever hair cut happens to them each year.

Flat out?

You have nothing. Nada. Inaccurate talking points and FUD do not make a solid conversation.

https://blogs-images.forbes.com/thumbnails/blog_1917/pt_1917_987_o.jpg?t=1345018501&width=640&height=434

Go ahead. Look at where we are.

More competition and markets are bot going to fix this. People cannot participate in those markets due to the fact that they are forced buyers in the majority of cases and or are I'll equipped to navigate an insane system to score dealz!

And just try to have a market type conversation. I have. Some places will just give you the boot. Others have no clue. And in some cases they may have the chat, bit qualify it with an endless number of outs because medicine is not a fixed bid, discrete job type system!

There is a ton of data out there. And right now, insurers and drug companies are doing two things:

1) running million dollar FUD campaigns containing all you put here, BTW. Guess those are working. :D

2) donating to anyone willing to continue the mess we have going on right now.

Have you ever been abroad? I have. Ever have meaningful health care type discussions, and or need to use the systems you find?

I have.

What we have going on right now is an embarrassment and terror inducing to most people unfamiliar with the way things are here.

And just for shits and giggles, embargoed Cuba has better national outcomes and a solid treatment for lung cancer no less. They are working with stones and chisels!

Nobody is talking about VA style socialized medicine.

And choice? LMAO! Best choose in your network, or hope the specialist you need is in network you choose now, if you even get to choose, or you have assets you can trade for your or beloved ones life.

I had to do that. All out of houses now, BTW. She was worth it, but damn.

Or, say you got sick. It is true they cannot deny us for having a condition, but they can price it really high, like house payment with 5k deductible type high and more.

Death panels? US private insurers have whole buildings full of people delivering the very least care for the most of your dollars they can get and when people tip over, they could give two shits.

Not only is your advocacy here a complete fail, it is laughable and a strong motivator to improve on efforts to educate others.

If I was wondering before?

Now there is no doubt. M4A is the policy goal.

Thanks for the help. I think I will share this. Appreciated.

Written on mobile, plz forgive typos. I should not even bother. Sheesh. Maybe I like you. Dunno...

Spud · 2020-01-02T01:45:28+00:00

As for reasoned into. Just know you are not having exchanges with some chump. Not only has this been reasoned sixteen ways to sunday, but I have personal research going back decades.

More shallow talking points.

Our system sucks huge for the vast majority struggling to use it.

I know many people, CA, EU, etc..

Their systems do not suck for the vast majority trying to use it.

In their systems people do not go bankrupt, lose homes, and experience many other ugly scenarios.

In their systems, life expectancy is not on a decline.

Leaving it at that is fantastic! I appreciate the help.

:D

Spud · 2020-01-01T19:30:15+00:00

All the data we need exists in pretty much all other modern nations making health care a priority.

We do not do that. A public option does not do that.

Our priority is making money, not fixing sick people.

AND what we have tried?

Terrible, cruel, ultra expensive.

Time to do what works.

Spud · 2020-01-01T08:46:20+00:00

All in 10000 percent.

Next time, cite the savings numbers along with the corporate talking point. While you are at it, realize millions are forced off their plans every year, often at their employers whim.

I will leave the rest aside. Got much better things to do.

You did yourself a real disservice with this one.

Spud · 2020-01-01T02:45:35+00:00

Lots of ways to get stuff done. Like I said, I am unconcerned as to whether you would vote Bernie.

There are a lot more movement, people powered politics receptive people.

That is where most of us put the time.

Same with issues. M4A will bridge a ton of gaps. That is issue number one.

The plan is to use a combination of an active and large body of people in tandem with legislative efforts to get the better, more necessary things done.

Happy new year.

Spud · 2019-12-31T21:41:08+00:00

I wish Bernie all the best, but he is nothing but a sideshow.

That expression is extremely likely to be associated with a more basic sentiment not well aligned with, "all the best."

Spud · 2019-12-31T21:28:49+00:00

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2016/02/19/heres-a-long-list-of-bernie-sanders-accomplishments-with-citations/

I am particularly fond of Sanders style of politicking where he builds a base of power not dependent on the usual big financial interests.

This, coupled with an engaged electorate, can move the policy conversation toward ordinary people, the public interest. He delivers exemplary representation.

Refining and consistently proving that model out is one of his more important accomplishments. Given the problems we face, this is very compelling.

Spud · 2019-12-31T18:41:56+00:00

Who are you kidding?

That was historic, just as the campaign and movement are today.

Not only do I believe, I feel the others have nothing but the same failed policy and leadership that got us here.

Finally, the others are extremely likely to lose.

That is because that have nothing but the same failed politics.

You should update your rhetoric. Accomplishments are easy to find and numerous. Some are happening as you read this.

Spud · 2019-12-31T03:21:03+00:00

The guy who got 45 percent of delegates against Clinton and what was likely one of the worlds better political machines?

Bernie would have won in 2016, and he has an excellent shot at it this year.

I get it, you aren't about Bernie. This isn't really about you though.

It is all about the massive and growing number of people who are.

:D

Spud · 2019-12-31T01:05:16+00:00

I am honest. The risks are well worth the rewards.

Those other people are either not sufficiently developed politically to make a serious run, or are all about the same politics that got us here.

Bernie is organizing, the others are selling.

Big difference. We are not just electing Bernie. We are bringing a movement into the process. Benefits will outlast Bernie.

I did not dispute anything. Bernie is in great health and that event did not change things very much.

Given you have medical understanding, you know full well the range of possible outcomes ranges from minor league (Bernie) to profound.

All the right things were done in a timely way. He just is not significantly impacted.

Spud · 2019-12-30T17:30:19+00:00

You are way overblown on what happened.

Bernie's heart did not give out. He did have a blockage and it was remedied.

When this happens to people, there are basically two cases related to the heart:

One, damage was done. Heart is weakened, or some how compromised.

The other case is no damage was done.

Typically, the no damage case is the outcome of a stent when the blockage is caught early and is well addressed.

That is what happened with Bernie. His heart is fine.

Had he pressed on, damage could have been done.

Do you know people who have had these things done? I do. And the outcomes are generally good. Many have more energy than they did prior.

One usually follows a blockage up with diet changes and perhaps meds to further reduce build ups.

Now, if we want to play fun games, what happens when Biden forgets what he is doing...

:D

Spud · 2019-12-29T21:12:43+00:00

I appreciate this. Thank you.

Spud · 2019-12-29T16:57:35+00:00

Whew! :D

Spud · 2019-12-29T16:17:19+00:00

I do live in the US. Lol, what gave you the idea I lived outside America?

The debt is due to Congress, not any failure at the Post Office. Bush did it.

Spud · 2019-12-29T05:09:27+00:00

Take these as fantasies. That is pretty much what they are for IT and or facilities drones in many a mind numbing, soul sucking enterprise environment.

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:59:21+00:00

Nice piece. Truth is a majority of Americans are not doing well economically. When their entire cost and risk exposure is balanced against income, let's just say massive appetite for credit is one of the easier to understand outcomes.

"Recovery" really only made sense for roughly a quarter of us. "This is the new normal" is far more common. And not in a good way.

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:55:53+00:00

I see his points as solid.

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:22:30+00:00

Squeaky

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:21:16+00:00

Weak

Same deal. Walk us through what that means today. How it leads to some bad, what the bad is, and why this information you provided matters.

Go on. There is lots of time.

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:11:25+00:00

By the way, there are no commies in the discussion. :D

My other comment is sincere, BTW. Let's see the impending bad. I am wide open. Humor me.

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:09:50+00:00

You get it. That's why the post office is in the Constitution. It must exist and it must be run by the Federal Government.

:D

Spud · 2019-12-29T04:09:04+00:00

Oh I don't know. The post is a pretty good thing. We've done good things with it before. These sure are times we could use to do good things.

Spud · 2019-12-29T02:51:49+00:00

FAIL

Want to try again?

You have implied that writing is associated with bad future events today.

So?

Let's see it. What future bad events and what makes them plausible and how is all that related to the writing?

Either you have some meaningful concerns, or really you are just talking garbage.

Which is it?

Spud · 2019-12-28T16:46:51+00:00

fta

In an era of little faith in government, a reimagined postal service could demonstrate how public solutions can solve many of our collective problems, from climate change to a predatory financial industry. That’s exactly what the post office did in the country’s early days.

Spud · 2019-12-28T16:24:31+00:00

So?

Walk me through what that means today. Step by step.

Spud · 2019-12-27T22:59:33+00:00

That's a what or who. It's not a why. He had reasons. What were they?

Spud · 2019-12-27T22:56:58+00:00

Why did he refuse to do work?

Anyone know?

Spud · 2019-12-27T17:57:38+00:00

Yes. When you earn your living doing something, you can say "Pro"

I would qualify it, pro ski instructor. Might be good for a pick up line lead in. Spice it.

You could even get vulnerable, "really want to just say pro skier, and I'm almost there..."

Spud · 2019-12-27T17:23:25+00:00

..recovered from? Yeah :D

Spud · 2019-12-27T12:26:44+00:00

Or roughly 120 bombs...

Spud · 2019-12-27T12:23:55+00:00

You can't make this up!

Of all the investments... had to be those people.

Connection noted.

Spud · 2019-12-27T06:36:04+00:00

It's like #8, maybe #7 in terms of size, not percentage. Right you are.

And there is a lot of money there. Being concentrated as it is, yeah, shit hole. Watch where you step in SF...

Spud · 2019-12-27T06:32:53+00:00

Totally. And it won't do what they think it will.

Spud · 2019-12-27T06:32:23+00:00

Spud · 2019-12-27T06:30:40+00:00

It did work. The problem with Slashdot boils down to it being sold and put on autopilot. Back in the day, when there was a "Slashdot Effect", that decision really did work pretty well.

I was there. Funny, when I even think about posting on /. the meta mod points start to flow... Anyone with a low UID gets no ads, mod points, ass kissed, just for thinking about a comment. Sad.

Spud · 2019-12-27T06:29:38+00:00

YES!!!

Total win, in my view. Others have mentioned Slashdot. Back in the day, Rob Malda had an open discussion about all of this. The decision to amplify good, or quality, funny up from the noise worked very well.

Downvotes = meta

Truth is, one can scroll right on by, block, ignore, or better?

Write something better, post something better, upvote something better. When promoting better is the only option, there will be more better and less meta.

Spud · 2019-12-27T06:26:07+00:00

...with a worse memory.

Clinton ended up loaded into a van, you know, private position.

Biden?

He's gonna forget he's running for President.

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:43:47+00:00

Totally. For now, it may have worked in his favor. While not being a positive, it's not like they are smearing him 24/7 either. Gives it all time to build.

(and it is)

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:37:08+00:00

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:36:49+00:00

Damn right they should. He can win. Likely to.

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:36:03+00:00

Thanks, and greets back at 'ya!

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:35:00+00:00

So am I.

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:19:05+00:00

Don't they realize this kind of thing amplifies and brings attention to whatever / whoever is the target?

Spud · 2019-12-27T00:10:38+00:00

Getting crowds used to be a good thing. Hey, I'm new here. Usual story. Reddit continuing to suck.

Greets!

FAIL

fta

BAM

Spud

MODERATOR OF