I would like to introduce everyone to a new sub. It's called s/UnionofRationalPeople. Let's work together to fight the forces that are destroying our country. Let's work together to fight censorship.

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[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We need people who will push each other to continue through the swamps when nothing seems to work or matter.

Agree that morale type stuff is important.

The people abusing the system are the people in control of the system.

I think it's important to be specific in targeting the acts that are actually wrong and the actual specific people and organizations that have done them, otherwise it just becomes another demographic divide-and-conquer. I'm from a moderately wealthy family, I went to a private university, and I've supported a lot of liberal causes in the past (some but not all I no longer feel so great about having supported). I don't think I, my family, and the friends I made in these environments are acceptable collateral for semantic convenience. Turning people against the "elite" is a specifically bolshevik tactic.

The other people in powerful positions are at the very least allowing it to happen.

Everyone who did not go out and stand in front of those statues is allowing it to happen. Everyone who chooses entertainment and "it's somebody else's problem to deal with" over doing what they can every evening when they get home is allowing it to happen. Most people have some influence, and in the age of anonymous social media everyone can have a huge influence if they make use of that ability.

Well, maybe you find my perspective on this helpful, maybe not. I guess I'll see what direction you're trying to take this thing. I would personally consider indiscriminate targeting of "elites," wealthy people, successful people, etc, to be part of what I think needs correcting.

But I don't think it is reasonable to limit a response only when you can prove someone powerful has committed a crime. That is usually a bridge too far.

Wait a minute, what about innocent until proven guilty? What kind of "response" are we talking about here?

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Everyone who did not go out and stand in front of those statues is allowing it to happen.

Yes, some people can risk their lives to stand in front of a statue and most likely accomplish nothing with it; while others have the power to effect millions of lives with the stroke of a pen. These two people do not have the same responsibility.

And the statues aren't the problem, or the tearing down of them. They are a stepping stone to greater violence, but not the reason for the violence. It is the policies, like teaching the country that all white people are racist, that are the problem. It is the media that is the problem. It is everyone in power who sides with terrorists like Antifa and BLM. The protesters and the riots are just symptoms. Standing in front of them is foolish.

I would personally consider indiscriminate targeting of "elites,"

Not anything I would advocate. It is a convenient shorthand. Any action taken would specifically address an issue. But at some point you need to talk in broad terms to convey to people how wide spread the problem is. While I agree that this should be avoided whenever possible, I don't think it is tenable to avoid it entirely. There are conspiracies between powerful people and there is often no other way to describe this group. Perhaps we could figure out a better way together. I recognize that to someone who is homeless it can seem like a business owner is by definition elite. And I recognize that demonizing people simply for having wealth is counterproductive and destructive.

Wait a minute, what about innocent until proven guilty? What kind of "response" are we talking about here?

For example, we all know that Epstein didn't kill himself and the FBI among other organizations is covering this up. We know the media is complicit. Yet there is no way for us to prove any of it. Should we just ignore it then?

The solution is to force laws to be passed that specifically criminalize the acts we believe they are guilty of such as the FBI agents staying silent about crimes they know happened so if it were ever proven that they were complicit in the cover up they could be prosecuted. This would put pressure on them to come forward. We should have special protection programs for whistle blowers. We should force laws that would exonerate people like Snowden and Assange. We should force those who are responsible for the cover up out of public office.

The NSA, FBI, and CIA are spying on us to an extent that is incomprehensible to most people. They selectively use this power against their enemies and opponents. They know who the pedophiles are in government. All we need is a law that specifically outlaws people known to the government of being pedophiles from holding office, laws that will punish those agencies if they don't enforce these laws, and laws to protect those who expose that corruption when it happens.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are conspiracies between powerful people and there is often no other way to describe this group. Perhaps we could figure out a better way together.

When I hear elite, that's not what I think of really. I think of everyone who's become very successful, basically. The people in the most desirable positions, whether it's the head of their own large company, a government position, a highly respected tenured bioengineer, or even a highly skilled hacker who never reveals his name.

The problem isn't the success, the problem is the bad things. That plus a high level of power makes a dangerous threat. They're not worse people than violent criminals with smaller reach, they're just better at it.

Perhaps "powerful criminals".

The protesters and the riots are just symptoms.

I believe rioters should be held accountable. They weren't even "just following orders". They have agency, especially as a group: these riots could not have occurred without them.

I also disagree that the statues don't matter. The Brits protected theirs more. I cried reading that statue paid for by freed slaves was being attacked; what a profoundly beautiful, unifying, dignifying expression. That's part of OUR history. A NOBLE part. We should be PROUD, TOGETHER, and remember. That's why those things matter. Though yes, I agree that the anti-white teaching and all the stuff creating the protests is a bigger problem.

Overall though, I think I agree with you about a lot, and I'd rather focus efforts there.

The solution is to force laws to be passed that specifically criminalize the acts we believe they are guilty of such as the FBI agents staying silent about crimes they know happened so if it were ever proven that they were complicit in the cover up they could be prosecuted.

Sounds helpful!

It is the policies, like teaching the country that all white people are racist, that are the problem. It is the media that is the problem. It is everyone in power who sides with terrorists like Antifa and BLM.

Surely there are many fruitful avenues that would help hold people accountable for what they've done in this regard. Research to uncover what's going on here and who the actors are is probably needed too.