I would like to introduce everyone to a new sub. It's called s/UnionofRationalPeople. Let's work together to fight the forces that are destroying our country. Let's work together to fight censorship.

submitted by Canbot from self.whatever

Please take a look and leave a message about how interested you would be in participating, even if it is zero. Just let us know why. What, if anything, would you be willing to contribute. Do you have any ideas for how the people can take back control of our government, our schools, and our media?

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[–]philosopher 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

It's rational to post a link:

https://saidit.net/s/UnionofRationalPeople

[–]Canbot[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Indeed. I am used to the format s/ whatever automatically hyperlinking. Thank you for your assistance. Live long and prosper.

[–]xigoi 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The automatic linking doesn't work in titles.

[–]charlie6067 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well done sir.

[–]philosopher 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

People are looking for political parties that simply aren't batshit insane. Being against censorship is a big part of that.

[–]Canbot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

There is definitely a need for a party that is what the Democrat party was 15 years ago.

[–]Riva 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

If you believe that then you do not understand what the Democrats were in 2005. And you do not understand what they are now.

They're the enemy. They are doing their best to destroy the West and bring about centralized Communist control. And they were working toward that goal in 2005. And in 1995. And before.

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I believe that large corporations have too much power over individuals in negotiating employment conditions. The solution is unions. It is an imperfect solution that results in many workers taking advantage of union protections to be terrible workers. But it is the best we have.

I believe that corporations, or rather the people who own these mega corporations, continually get more powerful. Using things like bribery, regulatory capture, and media manipulation they get more and more oppressive of the lower classes. The unions are not strong enough to combat this. The only solution is a government solution. It is an imperfect solution that results in problems.

I believe that at some point the Democrat party was an attempt at this. It was imperfect. What it has since morphed into is another captured seat of power by the elite. In order to prevent another Democrat party that would seek to challenge their power the elite are engaging in a divide and conquer war against the people.

It doesn't matter what your feelings are about Democrats, so long as you can recognize the tyranny of the ultra rich and the need to fight back.

[–]Riva 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The unions are a tool. The democrats are trying to push communism. They had a plan and they are executing it. They don't like Trump because he got in their way.

[–]Breeze 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Read the Unibomber manifesto, it goes back to at least the early 90s.

[–]philosopher 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

'Let's party like it's 2005'

[–]yellow_algebra_31 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Rather than trying to make an up-front commitment to contribute something, I think my interest will be apparent in my participation (or not) as this project moves forward.

I am extremely disturbed by the violent totalitarian leftist stuff. There are a lot of things going on that I don't think are ok.

I think we should be working together as Americans (well, I'm American, so I'm coming from that perspective, but this kind of stuff affects the entire Western world.) So I guess we should be working together as Westerners, and perhaps on a larger scale than that as well.

As an American living in a democracy, I believe it's ultimately the responsibility of the people to maintain the country properly.

I have some of ideas, but presumably others do too? It doesn't feel difficult to come up with ideas. It also feels like a big question. Maybe I will have to think about it some.

The elites have the media, Hollywood, the school system, corrupt politicians, major corporations, the biggest tech companies, and even violent groups like Antifa and BLM all working to divide us. We desperately need to coalesce into some kind of functional group to counter this. Hopefully this can be a nucleation site for a counter offensive.

I would push back against the use of "elites". There's nothing wrong with excellence; what's wrong is the violence, abuse of the system, totalitarianism, etc. In my mind. It feels to me like the threat is violent, totalitarian bolshevism/communism, not "elites". I think this "anti-elite" (including anti-rich) sentiment is another form of divide-and-conquer, and it's one that SaidIt has a problem with. I think it is part of the bolshevist subversion.

[–]Canbot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

working together as Americans

This is exactly what the goal should be. We are being divided on racial lines and while there are legitimate grievances the majority of what people believe is bullshit. While international issues are related I think we should focus on local issues and the American Media's role in the race war. I believe the solution to racism is Nationalism and the ultimate goal should be to bring people together as Americans.

Democracys are controlled by the media. There is major voting fraud that doesn't really matter to the little guy because both parties are corrupt. It is a distracting circus performed by the media, and a "Game of Thrones" among the elite.

It doesn't feel difficult to come up with ideas.

It is difficult to execute them. A lot of ideas can be killed with poor execution, while others are only exposed as bad ideas after a lot of hard work and it is sometimes hard to distinguish the two; which can be demoralizing. This is one of the biggest reasons for a coalition. We need people who will push each other to continue through the swamps when nothing seems to work or matter. It is far less about more hands equals more work. One really motivated person can do the work of 10 but they will burn out.

I would push back against the use of "elites"

The people abusing the system are the people in control of the system. The other people in powerful positions are at the very least allowing it to happen. It is impossible to prove motivation so it is impossible to condemn someone for being a Bolsheviki. It is even harder to convince less informed or less intelligent people why Bolshevism is bad and should be passionately opposed. Elite is a functioning proxy, even if it is just a proxy. It would obviously be better to specifically target individuals and specific policies and actions whenever possible. But I don't think it is reasonable to limit a response only when you can prove someone powerful has committed a crime. That is usually a bridge too far.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We need people who will push each other to continue through the swamps when nothing seems to work or matter.

Agree that morale type stuff is important.

The people abusing the system are the people in control of the system.

I think it's important to be specific in targeting the acts that are actually wrong and the actual specific people and organizations that have done them, otherwise it just becomes another demographic divide-and-conquer. I'm from a moderately wealthy family, I went to a private university, and I've supported a lot of liberal causes in the past (some but not all I no longer feel so great about having supported). I don't think I, my family, and the friends I made in these environments are acceptable collateral for semantic convenience. Turning people against the "elite" is a specifically bolshevik tactic.

The other people in powerful positions are at the very least allowing it to happen.

Everyone who did not go out and stand in front of those statues is allowing it to happen. Everyone who chooses entertainment and "it's somebody else's problem to deal with" over doing what they can every evening when they get home is allowing it to happen. Most people have some influence, and in the age of anonymous social media everyone can have a huge influence if they make use of that ability.

Well, maybe you find my perspective on this helpful, maybe not. I guess I'll see what direction you're trying to take this thing. I would personally consider indiscriminate targeting of "elites," wealthy people, successful people, etc, to be part of what I think needs correcting.

But I don't think it is reasonable to limit a response only when you can prove someone powerful has committed a crime. That is usually a bridge too far.

Wait a minute, what about innocent until proven guilty? What kind of "response" are we talking about here?

[–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Everyone who did not go out and stand in front of those statues is allowing it to happen.

Yes, some people can risk their lives to stand in front of a statue and most likely accomplish nothing with it; while others have the power to effect millions of lives with the stroke of a pen. These two people do not have the same responsibility.

And the statues aren't the problem, or the tearing down of them. They are a stepping stone to greater violence, but not the reason for the violence. It is the policies, like teaching the country that all white people are racist, that are the problem. It is the media that is the problem. It is everyone in power who sides with terrorists like Antifa and BLM. The protesters and the riots are just symptoms. Standing in front of them is foolish.

I would personally consider indiscriminate targeting of "elites,"

Not anything I would advocate. It is a convenient shorthand. Any action taken would specifically address an issue. But at some point you need to talk in broad terms to convey to people how wide spread the problem is. While I agree that this should be avoided whenever possible, I don't think it is tenable to avoid it entirely. There are conspiracies between powerful people and there is often no other way to describe this group. Perhaps we could figure out a better way together. I recognize that to someone who is homeless it can seem like a business owner is by definition elite. And I recognize that demonizing people simply for having wealth is counterproductive and destructive.

Wait a minute, what about innocent until proven guilty? What kind of "response" are we talking about here?

For example, we all know that Epstein didn't kill himself and the FBI among other organizations is covering this up. We know the media is complicit. Yet there is no way for us to prove any of it. Should we just ignore it then?

The solution is to force laws to be passed that specifically criminalize the acts we believe they are guilty of such as the FBI agents staying silent about crimes they know happened so if it were ever proven that they were complicit in the cover up they could be prosecuted. This would put pressure on them to come forward. We should have special protection programs for whistle blowers. We should force laws that would exonerate people like Snowden and Assange. We should force those who are responsible for the cover up out of public office.

The NSA, FBI, and CIA are spying on us to an extent that is incomprehensible to most people. They selectively use this power against their enemies and opponents. They know who the pedophiles are in government. All we need is a law that specifically outlaws people known to the government of being pedophiles from holding office, laws that will punish those agencies if they don't enforce these laws, and laws to protect those who expose that corruption when it happens.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are conspiracies between powerful people and there is often no other way to describe this group. Perhaps we could figure out a better way together.

When I hear elite, that's not what I think of really. I think of everyone who's become very successful, basically. The people in the most desirable positions, whether it's the head of their own large company, a government position, a highly respected tenured bioengineer, or even a highly skilled hacker who never reveals his name.

The problem isn't the success, the problem is the bad things. That plus a high level of power makes a dangerous threat. They're not worse people than violent criminals with smaller reach, they're just better at it.

Perhaps "powerful criminals".

The protesters and the riots are just symptoms.

I believe rioters should be held accountable. They weren't even "just following orders". They have agency, especially as a group: these riots could not have occurred without them.

I also disagree that the statues don't matter. The Brits protected theirs more. I cried reading that statue paid for by freed slaves was being attacked; what a profoundly beautiful, unifying, dignifying expression. That's part of OUR history. A NOBLE part. We should be PROUD, TOGETHER, and remember. That's why those things matter. Though yes, I agree that the anti-white teaching and all the stuff creating the protests is a bigger problem.

Overall though, I think I agree with you about a lot, and I'd rather focus efforts there.

The solution is to force laws to be passed that specifically criminalize the acts we believe they are guilty of such as the FBI agents staying silent about crimes they know happened so if it were ever proven that they were complicit in the cover up they could be prosecuted.

Sounds helpful!

It is the policies, like teaching the country that all white people are racist, that are the problem. It is the media that is the problem. It is everyone in power who sides with terrorists like Antifa and BLM.

Surely there are many fruitful avenues that would help hold people accountable for what they've done in this regard. Research to uncover what's going on here and who the actors are is probably needed too.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Split the Rs over the constitution, split the Ds over Israel, make a Libertarian party, but most of all it's about the $. If enough people are anti-war, an anti-war investment fund could be fruitful. 401k funds could be moved into it and out of Wall St status quo pockets.

Maybe there's a stronger unifier than "anti-war".

[–]yellow_algebra_31 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd get behind anti-aggression. I don't like meddling in countries around the world. I'd rather have positive relations.

[–]Canbot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Anti war is not an identity. American is. Nationalism is the solution.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

But plenty of people that are into nationalism are just fine with America being the world's terrorist/spreading democracy. It sounds too vague to me although I agree that we should take pride in our dirt and founding principles and try to make things better.

[–]Canbot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What those people can't see is the fact that our "imperialism" is driven by private interests. The best tactic is not to oppose war itself, because often war is necessary for defense and to curb the aggression of other nations, but to oppose the manipulation of our foreign policy by those not interested solely in national defense.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

because often war is necessary for defense and to curb the aggression of other nations

Do you have any examples? I think you've got to go way back to before the civil war to even come close.

Anyway, apparently uniting any significant amount of people behind any issue is next to impossible. Especially when millions go into inorganically creating other causes.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

oppose the manipulation of our foreign policy by those not interested solely in national defense

agree.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Nation" comes from the same "nat-" as "nativity" and "natal". Birth. It's about the people. People need a safe place to exist and thrive, that's primarily what nationalism is about imo.

eta: to be clear, not just "any people" in general from anywhere, but specifically the people that are part of a specific origin or birth.

[–]xigoi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not interested because, despite its name not stating that, the subspace is specific to a country that I don't live in.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Is this to say that, if it were not American-specific, you might be interested? As an American I think I should be primarily US-focused, but I think some of these same issues affect people in other countries too, especially Western countries. Do you relate to some of these issues? Would you be interested in collaboration in some other way, though perhaps not on this specific topic in this specific way?

[–]xigoi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Honestly, most people in my country don't care about this SJW bullshit and we have our own political problems, but I'm afraid that with the USA having such big control over social media, these attitudes will eventually conquer other countries. (As you said, some European countries are already affected.)

[–]yellow_algebra_31 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I also don't like it when I see people thinking American politics has much relevance outside America. Sure, we share lots of common heritage and we should appreciate that and have solidarity with each other where it makes sense, but when some guy in Finland starts talking about gender neutral pronouns in a language that natively has them? Really?... Like you said, each country has their own problems they should be keeping their focus on. We can learn from each other but even then we must adapt ideas for our own local context.

I also feel we have some shared issues though. For example some of the non-free-speech stuff in some European countries worries me. Yes I don't live there and it's not my place to say, but it feels like criminalizing anti-immigration sentiment in Britain is related to suppression of anti-immigration sentiment in the US. (Though yes, Britain and US are more connected than some.) Or the anti-holocaust-denial laws in Germany seem worrying to me, even though I'm not a German. Or people telling the Ukraine they shouldn't compare the Holodomor to the Holocaust. And there are some campaigns that are clearly international, like the list of countries and their laws regarding homo- relationships. I don't want to intrude since these aren't my countries and I don't understand a lot of the context there, but if people from those countries wanted to work with me on what feels like a shared issue, I would want to work with them.

Does the US really have such a big influence on social media comparatively? People have their own local languages to do their politics in, don't they? A lot of people use English for international stuff I assume, but for local stuff? Maybe it would help to try to separate political stuff by country more visibly.

[–]GST893 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The sub sounds interesting. The goals of it are not achievable in the current system as it is far too corrupt. The solution to our political problems can be solved the same way Saidit has solved the Reddit problem. By working outside the system to form a new system that makes the corrupt one obsolete.

[–]Riva 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Take the oath.

[–]Canbot[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I took the oath. To protect this country from all enemies foreign and domestic.

[–]yellow_algebra_31 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

the oath?

[–]Riva 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

wwg1wga. Look into who is qanon. Or don't. Totally up to you.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Canbot[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Which coalition government would that be?

    [–]Odysseus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    My question is what are the measures by which you would count something as a rational factual claim? Peer reviewed journal citation? Repeatable results via repeatable experiment? Widely accepted truths? I ask because there are elements of censorship that we all use in order to verify and then share accurate information and one of them is counting on each other not to lie about or or misrepresent the accuracy of information being shared.

    [–]Canbot[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    There are levels of accuracy and all honest people will agree on what that hierarchy is. The problem isn't that the truth is subjective, the problem is that journalism has been captured by those who use it to purposely spread lies.