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[–]PeddaKondappa 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm an athiest. Sam Harris is a pompous idiot. He does not represent all atheists, though I bet he wishes he did.

Sam Harris is at least smart enough to understand the importance of objectivity in moral theory, which is why he argues for an objective morality separate from religion (though he fails miserably at this).

Natural Law = Do not harm others

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. For one thing, there have been numerous men throughout history who don't give a damn about your moral formula, and I think you would be hard-pressed to explain to someone like Genghis Khan or Tamerlane why they should relinquish all of their power and privilege (which is based on domination over others) and live like an ordinary person. Second, it is not exactly straightforward what constitutes "harm" and what doesn't. For example, does usury count as "theft", and therefore as "harm"? What about adultery or fornication, even if entirely consensual? If a wife cheats on her husband or a husband cheats on his wife, is the other spouse being "harmed"? Are their children being "harmed" by their actions?

I would argue, based on religious laws which I hold to be reflective of objective moral truth, that usury and adultery are both harmful to society as a whole and are emphatically immoral, and that people who are guilty of usury and adultery should be punished severely. But most atheists don't seem to have much of a problem with these things, considering how rampant usury and adultery are in modern Western society.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. Nothing is simple. Except that foundational fundamental of Natural Law that applies to all species. Deviants from it will not continue to thrive and evolve.

Good point about the king of the hill not relinquishing their power. Religious morality from an invisible ineffective God sure won't convince them to change their behavior - unless you've first instilled in them a strong dogmatic social virus to make them superstitious. Doesn't mean they're correct - it just means they're limited.

Yes, nothing is simple regarding "harm". Currently our corrupt matrix of oppressive systems kills by a thousand paper cuts. Endless laws, rules, and red tape. How can one person defend themselves and their family against the establishment injustices? Soooo much grey area. Religion will not simplify this conundrum. Centralizing humanity in cities is a recent situation afforded us through technology. This proximity to a vast anonymous citizenry without a sense of community is certainly a problem that religion, philosophy, and morality have yet to properly deal with - including problems with the family unit, ephemeral relationships, jealousy, and stable upbringings. It's not cheating if you have permission in the open. Tried and true religious-based traditions can certainly help, but we need more. Myths won't help.

Usury is usually done with leverage under pressure. It's exploitative and harmful.