all 42 comments

[–]at_finn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Good fuck Ukraine...America First

[–]Dune1032[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Helping Ukraine is putting America first. Putin will not stop with Ukraine. It would be more expensive for American troops to be fighting Russia.

[–]at_finn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nah...those are globalist talking points. I am done with the scare tactics that the globalists use to control the population.

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But we have a lesson from the 1930's. Hitler did not stop with the Sudetenland.

[–]at_finn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If we had left Hitler alone, Germany and the Soviet Union would have destroyed each other. No cold war. No Korean War. No Vietnam.

[–]Dune1032[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. Germany would have conquered the USSR. Germany failed because the Allies supplied the USSR with material and forced Germany to fight on two fronts.

[–]cunninglingus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Why do you think the US - within NATO - has kept Russia in check since WWII? Read a book, ffs. Read about that history.

[–]Dune1032[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The purpose of NATO is to deter Russia from attacking a NATO country. Helping Ukraine will deter Russian aggression in Ukraine and elsewhere.

[–]cunninglingus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

yep

[–]socks_the_muslim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

i am a muslim

[–]gosso920 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ukraine is not a NATO country. Fuck 'em.

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But if Russia conquers Ukraine, Putin will threaten a NATO country. It's easier to stop Putin in Ukraine. Remember what happened when France and Britain gave the Sudetenland to Hitler.

[–]gosso920 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.

[–]StillLessons 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're ignoring that Russia ≠ the Soviet Union. The end of the USSR created today's geopolitical landscape, which bears no resemblance to that of post-war until 1989. The resources of Russia are not remotely comparable to the resources of the Soviet Union plus the eastern bloc countries.

[–]cunninglingus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're ignoring Russian history since WWII. Russia still has one of the largest militaries and military capabilities in the world. Russian engagements in former USSR countries have also been significant.

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Democrats are foolish. They should work with Republicans on an immigration bill so Ukraine funding can pass. Even if the Southern border is completely closed to migrants, there would be no harm to the US. However, if Russia conquers Ukraine, Russia will be more powerful and threaten the West.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even if the Southern border is completely closed to migrants, there would be no harm to the US.

Citation needed

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Migrants crossing the Southern border are not H-1B recipients with special skills. Consequently, the US would not be losing anything even if none of these migrants were permitted to enter.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Migrants crossing the Southern border are not H-1B recipients with special skills.

Citation needed.

Consequently, the US would not be losing anything even if none of these migrants were permitted to enter.

Another citation needed.

[–]socks_the_muslim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

i am a muslim

[–]cunninglingus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, and moreover - Republicans are bought by Russian and corporate donors and are evil scum who should be lined up at a wall and shot (or something like that). This isn't about immigration. GOP (and some Dems) have for 40+ plus years demonized immigrants while making sure that they get into the country in the millions, to take cheap jobs in several sectors. GOP logic: (1) South Americans are lazy bastards AND (2) South Americans are takin' our jerbs. Don't forget the 20 million South Asian diaspora hired by the US for cheap IT and Medical. Blame dems for part of this, but it's also definitely a GOP strategy, as they're the only ones claiming them "dirty foreigners" are to blame for our problems, while making sure their Big Farm and Big IT and Big Medicine homies have the ability to get more migrant labor. It's also rather easy to get into the US, by several means. The southern border wall is EASY to get through, anyone can cross from Canada, and it's easy to get tourist or student visas to the US and then work the system. The Obama and Biden administrations are famous for returning numerous migrants across the southern border (look it up), whereas the Trump admin favored splitting up families and caging them in inhumane camps. That's the GOP demonization strategy. Dems send the migrants back. Most migrants enter the US legally.

[–]WoodyWoodPecker 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Democrats are out of touch and weak on foreign policy. Trump knew how to deal with Putin and Biden doesn't. Putin only respects strength, and Trump had to threaten to push the button if Putin decided to invade Ukraine.

[–]monkeymagic 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

world leaders laughed at trump uniformly. they seriously thought his presidency was some kind of joke. they think the same thing of the current incumbent.

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]StillLessons 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

However, if Russia conquers Ukraine, Russia will be more powerful and threaten the West.

This oversimplification of this conflict is the root of the problem. "Russia conquers Ukraine" is not remotely what's going on. "Ukraine" is yet another of the innumerable examples throughout history of political borders which do not accurately reflect the tribal reality that exists on the ground. The people in the west of Ukraine HATE the people in the east of Ukraine and vice versa. These are two mutually antagonistic tribes. The group from western Ukraine took power in 2014 from a leader who had been aligned with the eastern Ukrainian faction. The eastern Ukrainians are majority ethnic Russians (overwhelming ethnic Russian in the case of Crimea), and those ethnic Russians never accepted that transfer of power. The links between this population of Russians in Ukraine and Russians within Russia's pre-2022 borders are family links, ultra-tight. There is no Russian government that could ever ignore persecution of Russians in Ukraine or the potential that Ukraine become a sworn enemy of Russia (the baseline meaning of "joining NATO"). This is so far beyond "Vladimir Putin" as to be laughable. Russian governments going back to Gorbachev (the "western hero") have been absolutely clear on this point for decades. Ukraine CANNOT be aligned against Russia. This is existential for Russians and always has been. Zip, zilch, zero to do with Putin. No leader could claim to be Russian and take the opposing point of view.

Russia does not want to "conquer" Ukraine. Russia wants two things: first, they have made formal what has been de-facto true for longer than anyone living today remembers - i.e. the eastern provinces, being ethnic Russian and being unwilling to be ruled by a separate ethnic group based in western Ukraine, are indeed Russians. That's what the annexation of the Donbass represents. Second, western Ukraine - which is not Russian and cannot be Russian - cannot be used as a forward military base for NATO to stage hostilities against Russia. Russia has been invaded from Europe multiple times in its history (anyone remember Napoleon? WWII anyone?). Again, this is way beyond the whims of Vladimir Putin; it is deep inside the Russian national character. Ukraine not being in NATO is something the Russians are willing to fight a war over.

Russia does not want to "conquer" Ukraine. They are fighting this war because they will not offer anyone again the opportunity to invade them from the west, as long as they can help it.

The takeover of the Ukrainian state by the western faction in 2014 was a tripwire. The resulting response from Russia was ironically surprising only in that it took longer than many of us would have expected for Russia to respond emphatically. The restraint shown by Putin from 2014 to 2022 was a measure of his desperate hope that Russia would be able to form a normal trading relationship with Europe and avoid having to take the bait offered by NATO of direct conflict.

Putin is not a saint. He's the leader of a state in Russia, and Russian politics has always been highly centralized and very corrupt. He's no different. But that is actually utterly irrelevant to the dynamics I have just described. The leadership in western Ukraine is absolutely the match (and then even a little more) for corruption, venality and ignorance as anything the Russians can put forth. Of course they are. So both regimes are thoroughly corrupt. But this war is way beyond that, and the profound misunderstanding on the part of the west of the motivations of Russia here (not just Putin, RUSSIA) is central to the understanding of why more than half a million men are now dead on both sides of the line in Ukraine.

It's a tragedy of human ignorance - on both sides, and to say "It's Russia's fault!" is the perfect embodiment of that ignorance.

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The UN recognizes the territory of Ukraine. See https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129492 Hitler demanded the Sudetenland because ethnic Germans living there wanted to be part of Germany. After France and Britain gave the Sudetenland to Hitler, Hitler took over all of Czechoslovakia. He next wanted the Polish Corridor. When Poland refused, he invaded Poland and World War II began. Now, Venezuela wants part of Guyana. The lesson from the 1930's is not to appease aggressors.

[–]StillLessons 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

First, 2020s Russia and 1930s Germany represent a false parallel. The contexts are radically different.

Second, if you want to talk about recognizing borders, the US needs to have a little conversation about its troops in Syria, which nobody ever authorized, either within the US system or outside it. The soldiers simply appeared there, fait accompli. Given the past 20 years of history, the west has zero moral high ground to talk about invading other countries for its own interests.

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You said that Russia claims part of Ukraine belongs to Russia because of the Russians there but that is exactly what Hitler said of the Sudetenland. US troops went to Syria to fight ISIS. They are now there to protect the Kurds. Russia also has troops in Syria.

[–]StillLessons 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Russia is in Syria at the invitation of the UN-recognized government of Syria. The Russians and the Syrians have been official allies for decades. The US? By your logic, the US can place troops in any country in the world they can get away with. All they need to do is identify "an enemy" and "a victim", and they're in. The particular irony with ISIS, of course, is that ISIS was the direct result of the US's prior intervention in Iraq and Libya, creating chaos in both locations that has yet to be resolved to this day. How many times does the US need to enter an area and create in it smoking ruins (Afghanistan, anyone?) before you begin to wonder whether US intervention may be, just maybe, a shitty idea? Is this thought ever going to occur to you?

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ISIS was also fighting Syria. ISIS is cruel and was murdering civilians in areas it conquered. Syria was unable to stop ISIS. Yes, the US and other countries can intervene to stop a group from committing atrocities. ISIS originated to removed Western occupation of Iraq but that cannot account for its murderous conduct. NATO stopped the Taliban from engaging in the mistreatment of women which it is doing now.

[–]helpingscamvictims 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

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[–]brimshae 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL

[–]SheKnowsWhatAllKnow 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Excellent chaos by the War of Mārs with the Magic of Sāturnus at Her Divinity's Will.

All love & attribution to Her Divinity, and all shall obey Her Command, forever. 

Γῆ

[–]monkeymagic 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

shut the fuck up

[–]SheKnowsWhatAllKnow 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Her Command: commit murder-suicide.

[–]hfxB0oyAPirate Party 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no fate so dire as becoming the new darling of the United States.

[–]Soloninja 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think the american people care anymore

[–]Dune1032[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From 1939 to 1941, Americans didn't care about the war raging in Europe. In November 1942 American troops were landing in North Africa as part of Operation Torch.

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I thought the Dems agreed to far more stringent immigration at our Southern border to get this aid package passes?

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2023/04/27/fact-sheet-us-government-announces-sweeping-new-actions-manage-regional-migration

[–]Dune1032[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

[–]UncleWillard56 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with them, but this is definitely a good start.

[–]Dune1032[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, Democrats should accept what Republicans want. Ukraine is more important than migrants from the Southern border.