A girls' basketball team forfeited the championship to a team that allowed a male (trans-identified) play on the team, for the safety of the real girls. Refusing to play is the only way forward.

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[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I agree at the professional level.

But in division 4 high school basketball, the inclusion or exclusion of a child based on their gender identity will have more lasting effects than whether the last sub made the bench.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

No, that's not fair. If we got rid of sexism kids wouldn't identify with gender and having sex-based teams wouldn't be distressing. But we won't, because we fetishize gender.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If we got rid of sexism kids wouldn't identify with gender and having sex-based teams wouldn't be distressing.

I think your belief that kids only behave as males or females because of sexism is faulty. Testosterone has a very real and measurable effect on behavior, including approach to conflict, sex drive, risk taking as well as the secondary effects due to size and strength difference.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

But whole point of separating male and female athletes in the first place is because of how huge of an advantage the males have. So if we're going to base it on "gender identity", we might as well not split them up at all. Unless, of course, you're a sexist who thinks genders should be segregated.

[–]ActuallyNot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's just not important enough at that age and level, compared to the value of inclusion for trans kids.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Then let's just have one team and forget about separating boys and girls.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That doesn't follow. More than half the kids at school are males. There's is probably a lot less than 1%, but certainly no more.

The former allows the domination of the sport away from girls if they have a disadvantage. The latter makes fuck all difference.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Even one MtF athlete can easily crush the cis women. Especially when all they have to do to get in the girls' competition is declare their gender, with no evidence of actually transitioning. Entire teams have lied about being trans women so they could cheat and win all the championships. And they get away with it and no one dares question it.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even one MtF athlete can easily crush the cis women.

Didn't in this case.

Especially when all they have to do to get in the girls' competition is declare their gender, with no evidence of actually transitioning.

If that's was the case in this case, show me where you got this information.

If it wasn't then its irrelevant. (As well as not proven).

Entire teams have lied about being trans women so they could cheat and win all the championships.

Really? Name two.

Hell, name one.

[–]dicknipples 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's a very interesting point, which I appreciate. And I can appreciate the interests of the state to reduce discrimination, and as you know I normally agree with you, but here's my main concern: although it's not always the best excuse, I argue that the rights of the 98% (.eg) biological girl group outweigh the rights of the biologically male or intersex kids who identify as girls and thus wish to play on girls' teams. This is mainly because of the physical advantages of male and intersex kids. And as you know - re. 'the higher professional level' - this has been a problem in the olympics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya . High schools already prohibit players who are a year older than their current class's age. In the present case, the team with the stronger former male student had an obvious advantage over all other teams. It was not fair to the majority of players that this naturally stonder player was allowed to compete against them. Moreover, many of those girls will now lose opportunities to play with a College scholarship because they do not have competitive numbers, due to losing matches against a team with a much stronger player.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I certainly agree that Olympics should have "Female" and "Open" divisions for sports where they have male and female events because a female would be uncompetitive against males. At that level it's certainly clear. College sports already has careers at made and lost, and should be separated. But you can care too much about one spot in division 4 high school girls basketball, in a team knocked out in the quarter finals.

High schools already prohibit players who are a year older than their current class's age.

There's three salient differences here.

1) The need for camaraderie for the trans kid.

2) The education about trans kids that the team-mates get

3) The vastly different numbers. I am reminded of Utah Governor Cox's veto of the anti-trans bill:

Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56.

  • 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
  • 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
  • 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
  • 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
  • 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide.

Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few.

[–]dicknipples 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Excellent stats. It would seem that the trans kid would have no other way to play baseketball, unless playing on a boys team. Recommending this would depend on a number of difficult factors, not least of which would be the issue of the trans kid not being a boy, in her view. I wonder if it would set a difficult precedent if this trans person wanted to continue at college level in girl sports, or if there are many more who will want to compete on the girls basketball teams. But with those reservations in mind, I completely agree with you that there is a case here - and this issue should be dealt with on a case-by-case-basis IMO - to potentially allow the ONE trans kid on the girls team, depending on a proper assessment of fairness in the High School system. If for example she's 6'6", 250 lbs, can bench 350, and dunk whenever under the basket, I'm not sure that would be fair on the girl's team. Otherwise, sure, perhaps there's a reason for her to be on the team that does not negatively impact High School basketball 4th division sports. Utah is an interesting example, but for ages 13-17, there are 22,200 transgender youth in California. source; (this will download a PDF, however). Not intending to drag the duscussion onward - just thinking....