What is up with "lesbians" who meet their exception?

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.Lesbians

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[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

It sounds like a cult document. I felt sick reading it. But yes, let’s agree to disagree about comphet as an idea. We disagree for sure. I think women lean too heavily on that idea and that clouds other aspects. That being said, if it helps you, that’s good.

EDIT for clarity on my position: you cannot diagnose yourself a lesbian using a list of vague points. I read through it and honestly, it could have been written by a young straight woman, easily. Or a young bi woman. Or maybe a lesbian. Sexuality is confusing and complicated, and the only true way to figure it out is by living in your real body, in your real life, having real sexual experiences. Everything else is conjecture. Many things sound better in the mind than in practice, and this applies to anything.

Writing a big long personal feelings list is fine for oneself, but when many other confused young women are taking your list and using it as a guideline or diagnostic tool and trying to jam their own experience into yours, it is more likely to lead women astray. So many of the points about how to tell if you are a lesbian literally have absolutely nothing to do with being a lesbian. It just sounds like a young person with little to no experience who doesn’t particularly find men all that interesting or sexy (seriously, this is common about most young women, lol). It does not mean she’s gay.

I honestly think the list is dangerous if people take it too seriously because people tend to try and conform to what they believe is true about themselves and not explore beyond it. This happens with any type of diagnosis or list of symptoms.

The only way you can know you’re into women is to have experiences in your body, with women. It’s fine to share common experiences as stories etc, but making a “comphet master list” and having people take it as seriously as a bible is not a good thing. The woman who wrote it was 21, her brain is not even fully developed yet. I just think women really need to be very careful in how they applies these ideas to their experience. I am REALLY REALLY glad I didn’t read anything like that as a young lesbian. It would have been a disaster for me.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

All right, I went back and looked at the giant list and you've convinced me. This is long, but please bear with me.

I actually don't think that this document was intended as a brainwashing document. But upon re-reading, it seems that it is capable of doing so. I originally did not think so because of quotes like this:

comphet doc: "Compulsory heterosexuality is the voice in my head that says I must really be het even when I’m in love with a woman."

Shouldn't a straight woman, at least, read that and go: "Uhh, I'm not in love with a woman and never have been?" But I guess they might easily skip over that, and listen to the rest of the document. I'll get to bi women in a sec.

This is an example of what struck me as concerning, re-reading through.

comphet doc: "If you’re questioning if you’re a lesbian, it's way more important to ask yourself if you can be truthfully happy with a man than if you’re attracted to them."

I think this is backwards. You can have comphet (or some similar type of internalized misogyny) if you are a bi woman, but that doesn't mean you're a lesbian. I can see how bi women could be highly confused by this. They might say, "Well, I wouldn't mind a relationship with a man, I would enjoy it-- but I think I'd enjoy one with a woman way more, so this must mean I am a lesbian."

Also, this is a highly misleading statement:

comphet doc: "Attraction is supposed to feel good."

Attraction probably doesn't feel "good" if you're a straight or bi woman in a relationship with domestic violence. As simply one example of how this could confuse someone who is not a lesbian.

Regarding how bi women could be confused by this. I think it is like: A bi woman could enjoy or be happy in a relationship with a man or a woman (though they might be happier in one vs. another depending on which way their preferences leaned). Whereas a lesbian could enjoy a relationship with a woman and only survive (or not, for some people maybe) a relationship with a man-- in the same way that I could "survive" living on a barren island alone for the rest of my life as opposed to not. I could do it, but it would suck, and a man could never fill that void in my life. - I actually don't think the comphet document clarifies this, now that I am looking through it again.

In summary. You're right. This document paints too broad a brush. I think it has helped a lot of people besides me, but-- now I am a little worried that there a lot of people out there who it might be confusing.

That being said-- I'd like to explain my previous position a little better, because I PROMISE you I am not the only one out there who was genuinely helped by the comphet doc.

  • I assumed that people will ultimately determine their sexuality on the basis of their own lived experiences-- not some random post on the internet.
  • I assumed that this document was intended for someone who already knows that a) they ARE attracted to women and b) are looking for permission to admit that they are NOT attracted to men. (Since society gives women shit for not being attracted to men.)

These assumptions are mistaken. However, I approached the document with these beliefs myself, and reading the document was helpful for me. I think that is real in and of itself and worth acknowledging-- and being dismissive of that (which you were not, but other people were) will turn away younger or more inexperienced lesbians from this community.

You seem like you have been in the lesbian community for a while. I know you might read shit like this "comphet master list" and have your alarm bells of go off immediately. And that's awesome. But, dude, I am already trying to un-brainwash from this TRA nonsense. My "lesbian alarm bells" are not developed. The comphet doc was one of the few supportive resources I have found so far. I have little trust for LGBT communities right now, and I am worried that other younger or inexperienced lesbians in my position might be scared off from joining or participating in this community, if they see such vehement opposition to the comphet doc without knowing why. Maybe we can have like a FAQ or sidebar link about this or something?

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think you and I are coming from the same place. I was helped by the master doc in my journey though I saw some ridiculousness in it that I just read past kind of like a plot misfire on a TV show that you pretend just never happened. I will have to take another look at the doc again with fresh eyes when I'm up to it. I also didn't mean to write a novel, but here we are because I'm procrastinating right now. . . .

But I, like you, already had recognizable and longstanding attraction to women. It took me a while to figure out what those feelings were and that it wasn't what every woman felt toward other women. Although subconsciously I always knew because I knew I couldn't talk openly about my attraction to women and desperately wanted to hide it. I couldn't join in sharing my "celebrity girl crush" because literally all of my actual celebrity "crushes" were women. Even my ex-husband knew this lol and it apparently didn't set off alarm bells. I dreaded people even asking me who my celebrity crush was because I wouldn't want to lie and couldn't think of who a plausible guy would be. When I shared that I thought that people only pretended that Ryan Gosling is attractive because they liked his role in the The Notebook, people looked at me like I had three heads.

I had many moments of other people noticing the gay within me or at least trying to bring it to the surface. Shortly after I met my later husband he asked me if I was a lesbian (I was 18 at the time ugh). In grad school, this one woman I desperately tried to avoid because I was super attracted to her kept trying to talk to me and bring up gay shit to me including asking who I thought was the most attractive woman in our class. No, I did not say "you." She came out as a lesbian right after graduation (Fuck) and I was kind of in denial about that too because she was literally the most attractive person in our year, very conventionally all-American attractive and I had stupid ideas about lesbians due to lack of exposure. Seeing her a few years later with her female date was part of a quick series of things that made me realize I needed to figure my shit out.

In addition to my longstanding attraction to women, I also had a recognizable and longstanding history of trying to be attracted to men and just not and settling for not attraction but companionship/admiration/respect in my one and only male partner and the comfort of finally having a stable family (his). I never had anything resembling a boy crazy phase. I have also received a lot of male attention in my life, so it's not like I didn't have options. It just never felt right and it felt like there was a wall between men and myself. I never knew what to do with male attention and I honestly hated the idea of men looking at my body.

So yep, I also read that document under the assumption that the other women who were reading it and found it to resonate with them had similar life experiences as mine and yours, and I didn't consider the fact that many have not and are just lost, confused, and looking for a solution to their problems in the same way people are drawn into the trans cult. LGBTQ+ is now billed out as this cool, fun social club for misfits. I think a lot of the transbians on AL are RPGing and are even transbians in real life and some are RPGing online as actual lesbians.

This arguable indoctrination is especially concerning because it may cause some particularly vulnerable women in the LBL subreddit to RPG in the same way because I can see the confusion it's causing in a lot of women who are languishing in some cases for years wondering what this means about their sexual orientation and it's all being carried out in their heads and disconnected from any action. I do think the LBL subreddit is full of women (though not everyone is like this) obsessing over their sexual orientation, wondering what it all means and curious to experiment, but it seems disconnected from real world experiences. That's not to say that that they need to have a sexual encounter with a woman to know for sure, but you would think by that point in life they would have had significant crushes on women and things like that. I can confirm that when I posted there I got some responses from women who were questioning whether they were lesbians and going on about how much they were not into men, did not enjoy actual or the idea of sex with men, had severe mental health issues, but did not mention attraction toward women, which is kind of crazy. I thought we all ended up there because we were head over heels for women?

I don't know about you, but for me, a big part of the problem was not allowing myself to consider my sexual orientation. I knew I wasn't straight since I was in high school but I never adopted a label. I didn't want to figure out the parameters. I didn't want to add complication to my life. I came from a toxic home life and wanted stability. I don't even know if ubiquitous "What is my sexual orientation?" quizzes even existed online at the time. I certainly didn't search them out and they weren't in magazines. I had 4 magazine subscriptions from middle to high school and I distinctly remember that the only LGBT content I saw in there was an article from the perspective of a teenage girl called "My boyfriend cheated on me . . . with a GUY." LOL. My point is that as soon as I actively tried to figure out what I was, it became clear very quick. I think if a woman is actively trying to figure out her sexuality over a very long period of time and without any action or interest in action, then it's highly unlikely she's a lesbian.

I commented the other day that I was concerned that lesbianism (and also bisexuality), especially as broadcast in the Lesbian Chronicles, is being marketed as a cure to life's problems where everything is super great, any problems are glossed over, there is no fallout, everything will work itself out, everyone is understanding, and it's just like entering a super welcoming social club. It is very similar to TRA in that way, and I agree with Strictly that bi women are especially vulnerable to this. The attitude of "if you are even questioning this, you are" is especially yikes for them. I bet the trans cult would love to replace us Stepford Wives style with these indoctrinated, "you can be whatever you want to be" and "you are who you say you are" malleable "lesbians."

So I just did a quick search of comphet across the LBL subreddit and yikes again. There is a lot of unresolved trauma and anxiety. Realizing I was gay lifted my anxiety and fog. It didn't create it or add to it. There is even denial that most women are heterosexual and propagation of the idea that heterosexuality comes from the patriarchy as to all women. No, it comes from the biological need of the human race to reproduce and it is not surprising that most women are heterosexual. We're not the norm, and we shouldn't be because who else is going to produce the next generation of gay babies?

Oh and JFC here is this gem from r/LBL that is making a mockery of being a late-bloomer lesbian and that master doc. I'm peaking all over again. This might be worthy of a post to LGBDropTheT.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

edit: I wanted to respond to this, totally forgot to.

I commented the other day that I was concerned that lesbianism (and also bisexuality), especially as broadcast in the Lesbian Chronicles, is being marketed as a cure to life's problems where everything is super great, any problems are glossed over, there is no fallout, everything will work itself out, everyone is understanding, and it's just like entering a super welcoming social club. It is very similar to TRA in that way, and I agree with Strictly that bi women are especially vulnerable to this.

I saw that comment, but I might actually go re-read that whole conversation now with this perspective about r/latebloomerlesbians in mind. It's really, really surprising to me to hear that lesbianism/bisexuality is being marketed as such... because growing up there was always such a negative connotation about them, for me. One of my religious relatives told me shit like "lesbians are all mean and nasty and horrible people" and other stuff I feel bad even repeating. Do you know who else is saying these sorts of things? I will take a look at the Lesbian Chronicles thing with these things in mind.

I just wanted to observe, too-- I identified as bisexual before, and so I realize that I'm in the demographic at risk for this sort of misunderstanding, as you and Strictly pointed out. I can't guarantee, I guess, in any way shape or form to you or anyone else, that I am lesbian-- because ultimately no one can see into another human's mind and be sure what their sexuality is. I believe that I am lesbian, but from talking to some people here it seems like there is little support for expressing uncertainty about your sexuality, or for you if you have identified as bisexual before. Other people seem uncomfortable with it, and I feel uncomfortable seeing people be like "I could never imagine a lesbian dating a man" and stuff like that. If people feel uncertain whether I should be commenting here-- then I'm not going to try to force myself into a space.

I have heard other commenters talk about "political bisexuals" who just refuse to date men but call themselves lesbians. I am not radfem and have never had this intention. I don't think I fall into the "avoiding attraction to men for trauma reasons" either. I feel like I am in a catch-22 because if I say that I identified as a bisexual before, then people will doubt that I am a lesbian; but I am just trying to be honest to who I am and to what is actually the case for me, and I don't think I'm bisexual. Also, I feel really bad for accidentally using bisexual as a "stepping-stone", I don't want to hurt bisexuals either. At the same time, this is my story and this is the best sense I have of it.

[–]yousaythosethings 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know how concerted and purposeful the "marketing" is. I'm not one to dabble in conspiracy theories, but reaching peak trans has had the effect of me trying to understand wtf is going on so I can figure out where we go from here. It's been a never-ending domino effect of realizations. In the case of gender identity ideology/TRA vs. comphet, I think the championing of comphet at minimum is a side effect of TRA/gender identity ideology colonization if not a deliberate offshoot. Let's not forget that in gender identity ideology you can opt into and out of sexual orientation based on self-identification alone and no one can question it. This idea pairs nicely with the concept of comphet taken to the extreme, which is that women are not heterosexual by nature, heterosexuality is forced on women, and therefore it's something women can opt out of, and should want to opt out of.

I would summarize relevant key tenets of TRA/gender identity ideology as: (1) you choose your own adventure (SO much emphasis on personal choice and not being bound by our birth sex); (2) your "truth" is more important and real than "the truth" and NO ONE can question it; (3) to be your authentic self, you have to change everything about yourself including making your hobbies and lifestyle reflect this new identity; (4) being gay is a feeling (how many stories from trans people are there where they talk about how they just feel like their heterosexual attraction is "gay?"; (5) LGBTQ+ is a social club for misfits (which is why they're SO obsessed with the word "queer" - they want to stand out and be seen and heard, not just be human beings living their lives) and this group is held together by manipulation tactics like forced teaming to keep the cloak of legitimacy and normalcy obtained by LGB people who successfully fought for our rights by demonstrating how we are like everyone else, co-opting the oppression experienced by LGB people, and then gaslighting LGB people into believing our rights were the fruit of the labors of trans people.

As we know, "gay" isn't a feeling. It just means exhibiting exclusive same-sex attraction, and as it turns out if you're gay that sensation alone feels entirely normal. It just is. It doesn't require you to look, dress, or vote a certain way, or adopt a particular lifestyle. It's not an identity, but a description of a factual, biological reality. Just like being a natural redhead isn't itself an identity. But TRA and comphet is turning all of this on its head. They eschew that sexual orientation is about a factual description of your biological reality. They both completely uncouple sexual orientation from sex and biology (as I will explain below), and instead put the emphasis on how your sexual orientation should make you feel and the lifestyle associated with the sexual orientation. If you think you would be happier and more fulfilled adopting a "lesbian identity," then that's "valid." I just glanced at the Master Doc and some things that leapt out right away include:

  • Wishing you were a lesbian to escape the discomfort of dating men

  • Fantasizing about how much fun it would be to be a lesbian and just be with women/a specific woman, but thinking that can’t be for you (this would not be so bad if they didn't make it about "how much fun it would be to be a lesbian" specifically, which is emphasizing the label, lifestyle, and identity of "lesbian" over the factual circumstances that happen to make one a lesbian)

  • You imagine a hypothetical future where you end up with a man and it makes you feel uncomfortable, scared, sad, disappointed, wrong. It’s an upsetting thing to think about and you hope it doesn’t happen. You don’t want to end up with a man even if you feel like you could.

  • Having a lot of your ‘guy’ crushes later turn out to be trans women

  • You wish you weren’t attracted to men / You wish you were a lesbian

  • Thinking relationships would be simpler “if only I were attracted to women/my best friend who would be perfect for me if she/I weren’t a girl”

  • Thinking you couldn’t be a lesbian because you’re not attractive enough, cool enough, or otherwise in the same league as most of the women you know (selling lesbians as the “cool girls” again. How many of us grew up thinking of lesbians as the “cool girls” club for Christ’s sake?)

You know what's missing from this master doc? Discussion of specific attraction to the particularities of female bodies. The shit that actually makes women lesbians. They've totally separated women from being female here. This is TRA ideology in action. The glaring sign that my attraction to women wasn't just some surface level "woman crush Wednesday" stuff was my intense attraction to the particularities of female bodies and desire to physically interact with these body parts: breasts (and specifically the feel of natural ones of all sizes), vulvas, clitorises, the idea of performing oral sex on a pussy generally, the softness of female bodies, the way women smell, the sound of female voices, women's hands, women's hair, women's eyes, women's laughs, etc. Here's the closest the master doc gets to discussing attraction to female bodies:

  • Thinking that your interest in seeing attractive women/scantily clad women/boobs is an artificial reaction caused by the objectification of women in media (No details, just “interest in seeing . . . boobs.” Sounds like what a straight guy would say and transbians’ obsession with “tiddies.” No discussion of the specifics of sexual acts or sexual touching.)

  • Feeling like you could enjoy sexual interaction with a woman, even if you can’t imagine having romantic feelings for a woman (could enjoy?)

In contrast, search the word “sex” on its own across the doc and notice how it’s all about sex with men. Just like with any trendy pseudoscience, there is a lot of legitimate stuff in the master doc to cover up the rest with the cloak of legitimacy. But if a straight woman is able to be convinced that she's not heterosexual because of comphet, it's not going to make her not straight, but TRA has a convenient way of allowing straight women in heterosexual relationships to be "queer." (i.e. by taking a trans-identified males as a romantic and sexual partner). And BAM, both are now "lesbians" and "so valid" and, in fact, they are oppressed by the terfy lesbians.

I had been noticing some yellow flags in r/LBL and in the Lesbian Chronicles, but I was writing them off as merely not relevant to me because I didn't see the coherent picture they were building toward. Reading the recent discussions of comphet on here helped me recast what I had observed in this new light. I did not make the connection to TRA and gender identity ideology but I did recognize that r/LBL is fully on board the gender train and there is encouragement of trans-identified males there coming out as late bloomer lesbians and discussing their experience with comphet, though those posts should peak any actual late bloomer lesbians fa real.

That being said, I’ve noticed patterns in the most confused people on LBL. They are also suffering from some kind of identity issue or lack of agency: many of them are autistic, stay-at-home moms, and some have a poor sense of self resulting from a variety of sources including borderline personality disorder, trauma, abuse, etc. The subreddit and Lesbian Chroniclse are overwhelmingly about the positives and how much better their lives are now once they’ve moved on. But you see so many women not moving on and willingly keeping their male partners, and it should be a red flag for them that’s something off in their identity.

Also, as an aside, I don’t think I’ve seen you post anything that is a red flag that you’re not a lesbian. I think you just fit the profile of an actual LBL.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Let's not forget that in gender identity ideology you can opt into and out of sexual orientation based on self-identification alone and no one can question it. This idea pairs nicely with the concept of comphet taken to the extreme, which is that women are not heterosexual by nature, heterosexuality is forced on women, and therefore it's something women can opt out of, and should want to opt out of.

I think that alone is a very good short summary of the problems with comphet and the comphet document.

I would summarize relevant key tenets of TRA/gender identity ideology as...

This is a very, very good summary as well. I will probably share these points with people, if you don't mind.

They both completely uncouple sexual orientation from sex and biology (as I will explain below), and instead put the emphasis on how your sexual orientation should make you feel and the lifestyle associated with the sexual orientation.

See... this is the most intriguing thing about it, to me. You can almost understand how people who are like "BDSM is a part of LGBT" got to that point-- because BDSM is a lifestyle and if LGBT is said to be a lifestyle by TRAs, no wonder they are confused. That link you noted in your other comment, from r/LBL about the transwoman and woman couple having trouble with having "queer sex"-- is a manifestation of this in the language people are using. I am actually kind of wondering at the term "gay culture" now, too, for example. I know "gay" has not been co-opted in the way that "queer" has been, but at the same time, if we consider that gay is just the presence of same-sex attraction, then anything could technically be "gay culture" if there is the presence of same-sex attraction.. you know?

You know what's missing from this master doc? Discussion of specific attraction to the particularities of female bodies....

Wow. That sounds so obvious lol now you mention it, but wow. It's also so sad to me that any mention of vulvas or female-specific body parts is being censored from AL, because like. I feel like that's one of the most taboo things to talk about.

"Thinking that your interest in seeing attractive women/scantily clad women/boobs is an artificial reaction caused by the objectification of women in media (No details, just “interest in seeing . . . boobs.” Sounds like what a straight guy would say and transbians’ obsession with “tiddies.” No discussion of the specifics of sexual acts or sexual touching.)"

Yup, yup, exactly. I can't express how much I hate that word, having heard it with disgusting repetition from straight males; it disgusts me so much. It is like the male fantasy "if I had boobs I would stare at myself in the mirror all day.." was brought to life. These straight men can indeed grow breasts, and then force or pressure other women to date them and then claim that they are "lesbians".

But if a straight woman is able to be convinced that she's not heterosexual because of comphet, it's not going to make her not straight, but TRA has a convenient way of allowing straight women in heterosexual relationships to be "queer." (i.e. by taking a trans-identified males as a romantic and sexual partner). And BAM, both are now "lesbians" and "so valid" and, in fact, they are oppressed by the terfy lesbians.

Yeah.. that makes perfect sense. I have seen that before, but somehow it did not occur to me that the "cis lesbians" in question might actually be straight women who were confused by comphet into thinking they were lesbians, lol. That's REALLY crazy. The word has lost all meaning, whoa..

Your breakdown of LBL is helpful to read. Fortunately, I did not look at that sub til very recently when I saw people here commenting about the problems with it.

That being said, I’ve noticed patterns in the most confused people on LBL. They are also suffering from some kind of identity issue or lack of agency: many of them are autistic, stay-at-home moms, and some have a poor sense of self resulting from a variety of sources including borderline personality disorder, trauma, abuse, etc. The subreddit and Lesbian Chroniclse are overwhelmingly about the positives and how much better their lives are now once they’ve moved on. But you see so many women not moving on and willingly keeping their male partners, and it should be a red flag for them that’s something off in their identity.

This is especially interesting because, as I'm sure you're aware, some of these forms of psychopathology are known to give way to frequent switches in sexual orientation. In fact-- I kind of wonder if the whole TRA ideology tenet of "you can self-ID as anything you want, anytime! You're valid!" is just blatantly a symptom, of some of these disorders.

Over the past few years, I have learned for myself that these two observations are simultaneously true: - Your feelings are real and worth considering. - Your feelings do not (necessarily) reflect reality.

The transgender rights movement fails to recognize the second one. They can "feel like women" (whatever that means), but that does not mean they get periods or need to be screened for cervical cancer. They can feel hatred towards their bodies, but that does not mean they have the "soul of a woman/man" or that they are even trans-- could be dysmorphia related to an eating disorder, trauma, etc.

I realize this conversation has ended up being about the trans rights movement, lol. But all of this is super important in how it pertains to lesbians, because "comphet" has become a very commonly-known topic among lesbians and it affects who decides to say they are a lesbian and why. I do really think that at least this newer version of comphet is catering to TRA goals and ideology. Would you mind if I posted on s/LGBDroptheT about comphet? I might link this comment of yours that I'm responding to, if that's okay with you.

[–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nope I don’t mind at all. I’m glad you found this analysis useful.

Even over the last few days I’ve seen more concerning references to comphet in the wild and I think it’s really being used and abused.

I saw 2 YouTube videos from a woman, one where she went on her first date with a woman and a later one where she addressed what her sexual orientation is (without explicitly saying what it was). She tried to leave it open ended but basically the effect was that she had only been actively romantically and sexually attracted to men but was “open” to being with a woman if she ever felt the attraction. And she talked about how labels shouldn’t matter and we shouldn’t judge others but I got creeped out because she was using same-sex attraction as being “open-minded .” She could have just said “I’m straight but if I ever did feel same-sex attraction I wouldn’t close myself off from exploring it.” There was a lot of good stuff in what she was saying in that people fall all over the sexuality spectrum but she had to make it this whole thing where she was almost denying the existence of pure monosexuality while also failing to admit she’s straight. It’s like I’ve seen straight people call themselves Pan because they’re open-minded like Lily-Rose Depp who featured in a campaign about non-straight orientation and it’s woke to the point of ignorance. And like is it just same-sex attraction that signals being open-minded to them or should lesbians/gays also be open-minded about dick/pussy? I don’t feel like my sexual orientation is open-minded, it just is. But again, it comes down to these wokesters seeing homo and bisexuality as lifestyles, identities, and feelings and not factual descriptions of biological reality. It’s people like this who fail to understand why conservative gay people are a thing. Like why wouldn’t they exist? Anyway, I digress again. . . . But one of the reasons why I brought this up was people commented on the video bringing up comphet and how it helped them realize they were gay and that set off alarm bells in me if they watched the video and didn’t see all these red flags yet call themselves lesbians.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That being said, I’ve noticed patterns in the most confused people on LBL. They are also suffering from some kind of identity issue or lack of agency: many of them are autistic, stay-at-home moms, and some have a poor sense of self resulting from a variety of sources including borderline personality disorder, trauma, abuse, etc. The subreddit and >Lesbian Chroniclse are overwhelmingly about the positives and how much better their lives are now once they’ve moved on. But you see so many women not moving on and willingly keeping their male partners, and it should be a red flag for them that’s something off in their identity.

This concerns me a lot. It's really similar to what is happening in the trans community on places like egg_irl and I don't want our community to do that too. These people need help with whatever they have going on; not to use lesbianism as a crutch. I know that people with asd and bdp have trouble spotting manipulative behaviour (something about their sense of fear) and I suspect that they can't see how they're being manipulated by online communities. Much like many of the people in the trans community can't see that. Combine that with low self-esteem and possibly an unstable sense of self and things will go wrong.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you so much for sharing!!! That helped a ton to read! I agree, I do think we are coming from the same place. I accidentally wrote a novel in response as well it looks like, sorry lol. Also, RIP you and your conventionally all-American attractive classmate, haha.

I couldn't join in sharing my "celebrity girl crush" because literally all of my actual celebrity "crushes" were women.

Made me laugh, literally so relatable. I remember my friends all talking about Zac Efron from High School Musical and I was fucking watching for Vanessa Hudgens. Lol.

In addition to my longstanding attraction to women, I also had a recognizable and longstanding history of trying to be attracted to men and just not and settling for not attraction but companionship/admiration/respect in my one and only male partner and the comfort of finally having a stable family (his). I never had anything resembling a boy crazy phase. I have also received a lot of male attention in my life, so it's not like I didn't have options. It just never felt right and it felt like there was a wall between men and myself. I never knew what to do with male attention and I honestly hated the idea of men looking at my body.

Omg, I relate to this SO much. I could've written this. I've been asked out by a bunch of different guys over the years, not one of whom I felt an iota of attraction towards and I just assumed that the intensity of feelings people describe about their relationships, was just majorly exaggerated and made up by, like, Disney or whatever to sell movies. The only thing I knew about my ex-boyfriend: at the beginning of the relationship, I remember feeling uneasy, because I knew that I wasn't feeling exactly what he was feeling towards me. But he always claimed he was "the romantic type" and "very emotional", so I just wrote it off as that. I knew that I felt safe around him-- and I finally decided that that was enough, and I was just overthinking it. I even brought it up to him several times, and he always told me I was overthinking it. Lol. (I should've just broken up with him, but I had zero sense of boundaries and didn't realize that you were allowed to break up with someone for whatever reason you want. I thought breaking up would make me a bad person, because he seemed so happy, and it seemed like a healthier relationship than all the other ones I knew of, like my parents'-- which is true sadly, lol.)

I can confirm that when I posted there I got some responses from women who were questioning whether they were lesbians and going on about how much they were not into men, did not enjoy actual or the idea of sex with men, had severe mental health issues, but did not mention attraction toward women, which is kind of crazy. I thought we all ended up there because we were head over heels for women?

Whoaaaa, that's crazy. Yeah, exactly!! Like, that's the whole point?? I would not be doing this if it weren't for all the joy of adoring girls, that I've had over the years. How could you not talk about that haha? Wow.. I had no idea there was like, all those people thinking like that. That's super concerning. I had heard of latebloomerlesbians before but never looked at it.

I don't know about you, but for me, a big part of the problem was not allowing myself to consider my sexual orientation. I knew I wasn't straight since I was in high school but I never adopted a label. I didn't want to figure out the parameters. I didn't want to add complication to my life. I came from a toxic home life and wanted stability.

Also super, super relatable. My religious family members were a large part of the reason, for me, that I didn't allow myself to consider whether I was not straight. Unlike you, I was lucky enough to have a few online tests around. I discovered the Kinsey-style online tests when I was just entering high school, took them and admitted to the most minimum of attractions to women that I felt and got like a 2 on the Kinsey scale. LOL. I remember telling a friend that I was "technically a bisexual". Then I somehow just.. forgot about it entirely? Tried to bury it? I started hearing more from my mother in middle school about how lesbians are all "mean and aggressive and btchy" and stuff, and I think that might've been part of it. I started also being asked out by guys and the idea of dating girls had never even come into my mind at that point. It only surfaced later when I was like 17-18 and mentioned it to my then-current boyfriend, and he was like "Oh that's okay if you're bisexual, you don't have to do anything about it, because we'll be together forever, it doesn't bother me" and I just felt *sick. I didn't want to not date women. Anyway lol.

I think if a woman is actively trying to figure out her sexuality over a very long period of time and without any action or interest in action, then it's highly unlikely she's a lesbian.

Okay, see.. that genuinely confuses me. That people are saying that, I mean. Like... how could you even wonder if you are a lesbian, if you're not even interested in trying to date a girl? These people must be truly confused. You mentioned trauma being a factor. I could definitely see how a lot of straight women might have stuff to work out in therapy about how they feel about men. And, I feel for them, being attracted to a demographic that has probably disproportionately hurt them.

The attitude of "if you are even questioning this, you are" is especially yikes for them.

1000% agree. The same as, "If you're even questioning that you're trans, then you're trans." That's bullshit. We're not even allowed to consider an idiot without committing to it? Okay, yeah now I really see why people on this sub are so cautious about the comphet doc. This is all food for thought.

"I bet the trans cult would love to replace us Stepford Wives style with these indoctrinated, "you can be whatever you want to be" and "you are who you say you are" malleable "lesbians.""

Whoaaa.. I didn't even think of it that way. Do you really think the TRA ideology is connected to this pressuring type of "comphet" stuff, or at least how people are using the word "comphet" today?

There is even denial that most women are heterosexual and propagation of the idea that heterosexuality comes from the patriarchy as to all women.

Okay lol, I don't know about that. I am someone who believes the proportion of LGB is underestimated and I don't think it is by that much.

Oh and JFC here is this gem from r/LBL that is making a mockery of being a late-bloomer lesbian and that master doc. I'm peaking all over again. This might be worthy of a post to LGBDropTheT.

Omg, that link. Well, their first problem is that they are not F/F, they are a female and a male in a relationship.. I don't know why a trans person with dysphoria would "feel pressured to use his dick" but. Them saying "there is a special kind of comphet for trans" like, no. What does "queer sex" mean anyway? How would sex be any different if you didn't have the different body parts? Queer is not just a state of mind. I would think it is from reading that, it's bewildering.

Okay actually-- I think I might post, either to here or to s/LGBDropTheT. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate it. It seems like this is an important conversation to be had-- but "comphet" is being wildly misused, and/or was at risk of being misused anyway. I am probably not going to recommend that comphet doc to anyone anymore, it seems too risky if they actually have no attraction to women.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Read the bullet point lists that talk about attraction to men and relationships with men, etc. Those are easily the most misleading parts. I don’t think it’s intentional conversion, I think it’s trying to see lesbian in feelings about men. You can’t find lesbian in how you feel about men. It seemed like a document of someone trying really hard to not be into men.

It was a lot of manifestations of actual forms of attraction to men, then debunked by some twisted logic. If you’re a woman and you are into a lot of guys and gets lots of feelings over them, even if the sex isn’t that great, you’re probably not a lesbian. That’s a fairly simple conclusion. I think the person who wrote the list had a lot more issues than her orientation, because wow.

But a document like that could really screw over a bi woman. If you’re a lesbian you WILL get there. It will happen. Like you said, based on real experiences you will have. But it’s gotta be damn confusing to women who are attracted to both. I have been around a while and I’ve been seeing a lot of women who are not lesbians calling themselves lesbians and then getting grief over it, and this document, and ones like it, are going to cause a lot more of that.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I agree that there are more problems in the document; I just picked a few as examples. I would find a breakdown of the whole document interesting, and maybe it is worth making a post about it.

What I am concerned about is that a blanket dismissal of "comphet" might be used as an argument by TRAs to dissuade other lesbians from joining this community. "Look! They're terfs AND they think the amazing comphet masterdoc is evil!" Do you know of any ways we could try to be welcoming to people who might have some mistaken beliefs? (I have little experience posting on either reddit or saidit, I'm not sure how stickying or anything like that works.)

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also: I think lesbians don’t blanket dismiss comphet, just in women who have had loads of sex with men and were married and had kids etc etc etc for years and years and suddenly think they are lesbians. That is suspicious to anyone, and most of us are likely to think those women are not lesbians. But it’s largely irrelevant to the actual women who know how they feel in their own lives, apart from Internet people being mean, and maybe women being hesitant to date them. But in the end, if you’re a lesbian and you’re cool to be around, you’ll find someone. You’re the only one who knows the truth for yourself anyway.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But it’s largely irrelevant to the actual women who know how they feel in their own lives, apart from Internet people being mean, and maybe women being hesitant to date them. But in the end, if you’re a lesbian and you’re cool to be around, you’ll find someone. You’re the only one who knows the truth for yourself anyway.

I agree.

I don't know if you saw my continued comment chain with u/yousaythosethings but I feel like I have a lot more context now for r/latebloomerlesbians, and why some people might be skeptical. I think it is too bad that people have to be skeptical because the real LBL people lose out; but the women saying they are lesbians who don't feel attraction to women, and who persist in their marriages/relationships with men, are not believable.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really. Lesbians are not particularly welcoming to people who have a lot of TRA-leaning ideas around sexual orientation, and honestly the comphet masterdoc is a deeply TRA sounding thing, even if the original idea of comphet is radfem. I believe in comphet, it definitely gave me gender dysphoria for around 12 years when we didn’t even have language for it, but that doc is just harmful to women long term. The lesbians will be fine because once they start lesbianing they will be glad regardless, but everyone else is going to be not-fine if that’s what they are using to understand their sexual orientation. In my opinion, only. Which is also not word of law. I honestly worry most about bisexuals when I read it.

I’m not sure how to make things easier for confused lesbians and newer lesbians, other than to say it’s not your fault things are bullshit right now and I hope people go easy on you. I know lots of women, myself included, are sick of that comphet doc making attraction to men the way to define one’s lesbianism instead of actually being about attraction to women. The whole damn thing should be about WOMEN and now to recognize same-sex attraction instead of being about how to tell if men are gross. Lol. Straight and bi women think men are gross half the time, but still manage to love them.

Edit: I don’t want to refute the comphet doc point for point or anything because then it will just be biased in a different way. Some women will relate to parts of it, of course, and those women are lesbians too. It’s not that no one can relate to any of it and be a lesbian, it’s that straight and bi women also likely relate to a huge amount of it as well, so it’s not really effective.

Editx2: TRAs hate us, it doesn’t matter what we do. If women are lesbians they will eventually seek lesbian only spaces no matter what tras say. I wish we seemed more welcoming for those women, maybe things will calm down at some point, I hope

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender feelings is one of the only relevant ones for me, and they don’t devote much time on that. I had hardcore dysphoria for years because of being a lesbian, but it really plays second fiddle next to all of the “man attractions that are not real” things. Gender dysphoria is one of the main ways we actually lose lesbians.

[–][deleted]  (5 children)

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    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Some women don’t realise it as easily as some of us do, and reading that document is going to cause a lot of women to strongly assume they are lesbians (when they might be bi, I think bisexuals will suffer the most from the masterlist, and women from cult-like religious environments that are pushing heterosexuality on everyone. Women from rigid rules environments are more likely to adopt another rigid belief system strongly and ignore reality). If you know then you know. I was lucky to know as well. But if I had read some big list like that it would make so much confusion in my head I might miss my body’s cues. You have to feel it and notice it, in the body. And put it together. I am concerned about this document in the same way I am concerned about the trans related lists. They take experience of oneself out of the real world and weave random things into lesbianism or transgender. It’s dangerous.

    Most people are expected to adopt heterosexuals lives because most people are straight. Gay men are also under pressure, so are bisexuals.

    What if a woman with a low sex drive reads that list? Or a woman who is autistic? Or someone with a shifting sense of self that feels different but can’t place it yet? The list basically assigns “not straight” to things that are whatever. It’s just really good to keep that in mind. Lots of bi women, especially, are going to be led to believe they are lesbians and then get shunned when they are not. That happens when documents like this circulate

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Don’t read it. Lol. It’s insane. Almost all items or scenarios on the lists could be experienced by any woman, of any orientation, for multiple reasons.

      [–]7of99 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      the only true way to figure it out is by living in your real body, in your real life, having real sexual experiences

      Sounds like this includes fantasy/masturbation. Which yeah not every fantasy is something you want to enact irl, but barring some weird extreme fetish, the sex/es you fantasize about having sex with is a solid indication of sexual attraction and is discovered through being in tune with your body. After all, you can think about a sexual scenario, but if you don't experience sexual arousal thinking about it, that's not an indication of your sexual orientation or whether it's a sexual fantasy of yours. So it's not purely mental, you have to have that exploration/connection with your body.

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yeah but apparently lots of lesbians watch male/male porn, straight porn, read male/male comics, fantasize about being degraded and humiliated by men, and are still “lesbians” so I don’t know if thinking thoughts in the head is super accurate compared to actually being near someone you want