Legal Rights / PoliticsAfter Roe: Here's the GOP Plan Kill to Marriage Equality, LGBTQ Rights

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[–]Tikiri 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I don’t know ... I just don’t think this will happen, at least not in our lifetime. Now, I may just be a hopeless “look on the bright side” optimist, or maybe clueless about the intricacies of legal procedures, especially when it comes to the SC.

However, the fact remains that most American conservatives oppose abortion, whereas most conservatives seem to be okay with gay marriage and gay people in general. I live in a conservative area and no right-wing person I know is against LGB people, and we’re talking diehard MAGA people here.

That said, trans is a totally different story! The only people I know who support hardcore trans ideology and gender ideology are very left wing people. And maybe that’s the thing: the more LGB people align themselves with transgenderism, the more support they’ll lose with conservative heterosexuals.

But for now, there are too many high-level conservatives who are LGB, or have family members who are (cf. Dick Cheney!), so I just don’t think the anti-LGB sentiment is there the way anti-abortion and anti-gender ideology views are.

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As someone who is both a conservative and a bisexual, and has a lot of conservatives in my extended family, hard agree on all of this. Conservatives think homophobes are weirdos too. Like, get-a-load-of-those-retards level of weirdos.

[–]wendyokoopa1 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's right. Most conservative lgb support making the trans community go their own way

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

My parents are conservative by Irish standards and are anti-abortion. They support me being gay and my sister being bisexual, and they voted for gay marriage. They don't like non-binary ideology and transgender ideology. My best friend is very conservative and he doesn't care that I'm gay. He's against abortion and trans rights, and he thinks that homophobia is stupid.

Not sure what it's like in America, but it seems like anti-gay sentiment is on its way out in conservative circles. At least in most of them. As long as conservatives are interacting with GLB Americans who aren't crazy.

[–]chazzstrong 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You'll still find a sizable population of 'edge lords' who consider themselves Conservative or Trump supporters that still ride the homophobia train here in the States, despite Trump's documented backing of LGB(T) rights for decades, but they are essentially the mirror opposite of the left's extremism. Most Conservatives in the US don't really care who you fuck, so long as you leave them and their kids alone. I, personally, don't consider myself a Conservative, but I do lean more Republican these days than Liberal...thankfully my interactions with these hateful inbred hillbillies is mostly confined to online spaces where the anonymity hides their true nature. Just further proof that the internet was probably a mistake.

Ironically I'm also in the ( I think ) minority that doesn't want marriage to be available to same-sex couples, but only because I want marriage as a concept stripped out of our government foundations entirely. Marriage is a religious event, everything legal-wise should be civil unions which should be open to all consenting adults regardless of sexual preference. I understand the fight for it, and I understand extricating it from our country is a pipe dream, but ah well.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Those edge lords are annoying. Many of them have disavowed Trump only because he wasn’t bad enough for them. But right wing people and conservatives hate those edge lords more than the left does, because edge lords harass other right wing and conservative people. I wouldn’t necessarily call these eejits hillbillies, because at least hillbillies leave their basements. You’d laugh at thos people if you saw them in real life.

My friend agrees with you on marriage. He maintains that it should be a religious thing only. I don’t care if we have marriage or civil unions, as long as the rights are adequate and same sex couples are treated the same as opposite sex couples. As long as laws exist to ensure that:

  • A married or civilly partnered couple can divorce.

  • Both partners freely and knowingly consent to the marriage/civil partnership. Duress and deceit invalidates consent.

  • Both partners are at least 18 years of age.

  • Neither partner is married or civilly partnered to a third person.

  • At least two witnesses are present at the time and place when the marriage or civil partnership is registered.

  • The partners are not closely related. No marrying or civilly partnering your first cousin.

There would have been no fight for gay marriage if same sex couples could see each other in hospital, inherit each other’s estate and make decisions on behalf of a sick or dying partner. Also, if there were no taxes, especially no single person’s tax.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There would have been no fight for gay marriage if same sex couples could see each other in hospital, inherit each other’s estate and make decisions on behalf of a sick or dying partner. Also, if there were no taxes, especially no single person’s tax.

Yeah exactly, these practical benefits of being married are huge and it's bullshit that they were denied to us for so long. And are still denied to LGB people in many parts of the world. The hospital one, especially, stresses me out to even think about.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Luckily, Ireland does not require you to be married to your partner to see him or her in hospital. But being married helps, and we legalised gay marriage anyway.

[–]HelloMomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I want marriage as a concept stripped out of our government foundations entirely. Marriage is a religious event, everything legal-wise should be civil unions which should be open to all consenting adults regardless of sexual preference.

How are marriage and civil unions different, legally?

[–]chazzstrong 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Legally? They're not. However Marriage as a concept is a union in the eyes of a God. It was devised purely for religious purposes.

[–]HelloMomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That's a... weird and narrow defection, and I'm not sure where you got it from. While the details very, something that is recognizable as marriage is a cross-cultural universal.

Secondly, if it's just a semantic difference to you, why do you think the distraction is important?

[–]chazzstrong 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Because it's a cudgel that conservatives use to rail against gay couples. It's one less stone for them to throw.
And I realize that various forms of a union have been used long before religion got it's claws in it, but it wasn't considered 'marriage'. Again, that terminology and the way we view and use marriage now is purely originated in the old christian ways from like 900 AD and on, especially when it was made a Sacrament.
We don't marry anymore for alliances, or to reinforce heirs apparent, we use it to create a joining in the eyes of a God...and, apparently, to joint-file taxes.

[–]HelloMomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is there to be gained from calling a spade a "digging implement" instead of a "spade", if it means the same thing? Do you actually think that would meaningfully change the way people think about it?

[–]chazzstrong 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes. Yes I do.
I also think you're purposefully being obtuse.

[–]HelloMomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm really not. I get that you don't like the social trapping of marriage or something, and in your heard they're tied up with the word "marriage", and you think that rebranding is the way to solve that. There are midst of so many political words game messes already pending. I feel like this idea has already been tested, and — from what I've seen of other cases of it — it's an absolute mess.

If you think trading out old words for new clean words without any baggage, could you name an example of this that you think went well? One that you'd like to model your proposed word change after?

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

whereas most conservatives seem to be okay with gay marriage and gay people in general.

Really...? That seems so unlikely to me because a lot of my family members are both diehard conservative and diehard homophobic. Some of them are very old, though, which might explain it.

[–]Tikiri 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was thinking more in a general sense: https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004629612/a-record-number-of-americans-including-republicans-support-same-sex-marriage

Now, that’s still a much smaller percentage of R support for gay marriage (55%) than D support (83%), but it’s also a 10% increase since 2015, which I think is quite significant. And it is a majority, which seems realistic to me.

And of course, my opinions are very influenced by my own experiences: the conservative people I know who support same-sex marriage are all middle aged and younger. I don’t really know that many older people, and the older (70+) folks who support it are Dem/left-leaning. Also, I live in California which may be a whole different thing altogether!😂

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing! Well, I'm glad if other people are more accepting than I thought they were!

Also, I live in California which may be a whole different thing altogether!😂

I live in a pretty liberal area too, although come to think of it, I think it may actually be more of a rural/urban divide-- all of the homophobic people I'm thinking of grew up in a rural area. Hmm. May have to give that some more thought.