Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

No such thing as a "feminine" or "masculine" penis. Feminine and masculine are used to describe behaviors, cultural norms, and dress, stereotypically associated with the two biological sexes. In other words, "gender". It's a social construct.

A penis is a male sex organ. It is part of a male body, and is coded by male sex chromosomes. It's not a penis flopping around on the floor. Genitals don't exist in isolation from the rest of the human body. The human body has a genotype, which results in an outward expression of the genes, the phenotype. Male and female bodies, just like other human traits, are coded in our DNA.

"Trans" people are people who chose to take exogenous cross-sex hormones, block their natural hormones, and have cosmetic surgeries. They have a mismatch of secondary and primary sex characteristics due to tampering. It's not a natural state of affairs, and if they stopped their interventions, their bodies would eventually go back to resembling their sex's phenotype. Clothes and hairstyle irrelevant.

Is a man that is only attracted to "trans women", and is not attracted to men that are not "feminine" and don't take hrts or surgeries to "pass as" women, really gay? Or is he "straight" for being only attracted to secondary sexual characteristics that are usually on women and "femininity"?

Transwomen are men. If he's attracted to only transwomen and not normal men, or normal women, he is bisexual or a closeted gay. B/c he is attracted to a mishmash of male and female phenotypes.

To sum up: femininity and masculinity are social constructs entirely dependent on culture, time, and place. Sex is real, observable, and consistent across 99.99% of human beings, and in most non-human animal species too. Sexual orientation is based on sex.

[–]Not_a_celebrity 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I have a question regarding genotypes vs phenotypes. Is sex determined by phenotype or genotype? There are intersex conditions where a gene is not expressed and the body ends up having genitalia of the sex that has nothing to do with the genes. It's like someone has a gene for being tall, but the gene is not expressed so they end up being short. Are they actually tall or short? Should we say they are tall because they have the gene for a taller height despite it not being expressed and them being short in phenotype? Or should we only take phenotype into consideration?

Wouldn't that be the same for sex?

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

I have a question regarding genotypes vs phenotypes. Is sex determined by phenotype or genotype?

I have a question for you: Are you a troll? B/c these are questions we have all heard a thousand times before by TRAs.

To answer your q: In terms of height, obviously it's determined by phenotype b/c height is an objective, simple measure of someone's feet and inches (or other measuring standards for other countries). I don't know of any genetic disorder where someone is coded to be a certain height, but they naturally grow to be another. I am going out on a limb and guessing you made it up for your veiled TRA argument. Height can be stunted, artificially, by caffeine or accidents, or medication, or whatever. Just like any other human trait can be artificially influenced or altered.

Sex in humans is dimorphic. The reproductive sexes are male and female. People who have intersex conditions (disorders of sexual development) are not your battering rams to "break down" or "unpack" the reality of sex (in other words, obfuscate reality and manipulate people through rhetoric).

Disorders of sexual development, like complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, are not a "third sex". In the case of CAIS, it's a genetic male (XY), who develops to look like a phenotypic female because of a disorder. The person would appear to be a woman outwardly, and probably wouldn't know she had CAIS until she faced health problems or lack of period, or lack of female fertility, due to her MEDICAL DISORDER. Appearing phenotypically like the opposite sex doesn't give you that sex's reproductive function, which in a sexually reproducing, sexually dimorphic species is what defines sex. That being said, it's a matter of social simplicity and kindness of call the woman with CAIS a woman, because she appears to be one, and was born with a condition she has no control over.

TRANS IS NOT INTERSEX! It has nothing to do with intersex. Artificially altering your appearance to try and resemble the opposite sex does not make you the opposite sex, and it sure as shit doesn't make you intersex. There is no such thing as "female brain" in a male body which is what TRAs argue.

[–]Not_a_celebrity 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

If asking questions means one is a troll then so be it. To me, I don't consider myself a troll. I'm questioning. Also if I were a troll I'd use "he" pronouns to refer to a "trans man". Instead I used "she".

Regarding height, I remember reading on epigenetics that genes can be off or on, depending on environmental factors. So someone has a gene for being tall but due to environment, let's say nutrition, the gene is off and doesn't express itself, therefore this individual becomes short as a result.

If it's a matter of kindness to call someone with CAIS a women, trans right activists can use that to say be kind to people that don't like their sex and body and want to be the opposite sex, call them the opposite sex, treat them as the opposite sex, let them use spaces for their opposite sex, etc.

Nobody chooses the sex they are. Nobody has control over what sex they are. It's understandable these people wouldn't want their sex, or would feel uncomfortable, why extend your kindness to CAIS people but not to the TQs?

Either you are kind to all these cases, or you should go with facts, not someone's feelings. Is someone with CAIS a man or a woman? I'm not going to call them a woman just because they feel like it or identify as such. If they are a man, I'll call them a man even if they feel like they are something they aren't, even if they feel offended. I don't care about feelings.

You can be kind and feel holier than thou. I'm not kind. My kindness only goes to someone that's not crazy.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Regarding height, I remember reading on epigenetics that genes can be off or on, depending on environmental factors. So someone has a gene for being tall but due to environment, let's say nutrition, the gene is off and doesn't express itself, therefore this individual becomes short as a result.

I already addressed that above: read my comment. I already said the expression of a gene can be altered externally, by say, accident, or nutrition, medication, etc. Read what I wrote carefully.

Read my comment re the woman with CAIS vs a trans person. The person with an intersex disorder did not induce the condition in herself/himself. It's a medical condition they had no control over. The whole concept of "transitioning" physically is that you do alter your phenotype through medication, hormones, surgery, blockers, etc. It's a form of radical body modification. Comparing radical body modification to a medical condition and treating them like the same thing is despicable.

I am kind to people who have medical conditions they can't control. I am not kind to people who radically alter their body and then bully others into playing pretend.

Edit: My bad if you are not a troll. The argument was suspicious to me, b/c we get the same arguments from TRAs all the time. I don't blindly trust people on the internet.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'd say they're a troll simply because they use the term TQ without understanding that TQ is the trans and queer community. In this case, we're only talking about transpeople, not the TQ crowd. They're trying to use terms they've seen people on here to try and sound like they're on our side.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That was my impression as well.

[–]Not_a_celebrity 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Queer people believe in 'gender identity', that's why you should be against the Q too. Q is where 'queer theory' comes from, which is what the T agrees with. Have you really not thought why they added a Q after LGB? Ffs you know what, think I'm a troll. Idgaf what you think.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I know queer people believe in gender identity, however what you said was:

TQs are the same way, they are given a sex they don't want, they are given a body they never chose. They hate it, so they keep wanting hormones and surgery. Makes no sense to show the disordered kindness, but not these people.

Did you just mean transpeople? Queer people aren't necessarily trans, and therefore may be comfortable with the body and sex they were born with.

TQ is only used when you're talking about the trans and queer community as a whole. It would be like saying LGBT people are given a body they never chose, when you're just talking about a specific part of the community.

[–]Not_a_celebrity 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh I didn't even notice I wrote TQ instead of just T though. I know not all 'queer' people are 'trans'. Sorry for the typo and the misunderstanding.

Also I removed the post after being called 'troll' too many times. I don't want to sleep and wake up to multiple other comments with the same accusations so I moved it to GCdebatesQT. And because that sub is empty af I'll have to wait for hours for people to bother answering me

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hopefully you get the answers you're looking for

[–]Not_a_celebrity 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am kind to people who have medical conditions they can't control. I am not kind to people who radically alter their body and then bully others into playing pretend.

What I meant is not everyone feels like you. I stay consistent, I don't show kindness to both intersex individuals, and TQs that think they are something they aren't.

It seems strange to show kindness to someone with a disorder, but not to those that get surgery or hormones. Nobody chooses what they are. I think I'm an ugly woman, I didn't choose my looks and I cover my face with a mask everywhere I go. I didn't get surgery for my face because I'm scared of surgeries and they wouldn't make me pretty, but it's hard to feel comfortable.

TQs are the same way, they are given a sex they don't want, they are given a body they never chose. They hate it, so they keep wanting hormones and surgery. Makes no sense to show the disordered kindness, but not these people.

But I don't show kindness to the TQs, because their TQ ideology is homophobic. Same for intersex, they are either male or female. Them feeling like they are the opposite sex and others calling them what they feel they are instead of what they are is like calling a man that never got surgery or hormones a woman just because he feels like he's a woman.

Both are ridiculous to me. Both end up hurting gay people just so the feelings of the intersex or TQs don't get 'hurt', and that crosses the line. We should go with either feelings, or facts, and I choose facts. It's like someone with schizophrenia telling me they see something that's not there. They have no control over their illusions and their 'mental disorder', but I'm not going to say 'yes, there really is something over there'. I outright tell them there's no such thing. Intersex individuals that feel like some sex should be told what sex they actually are. CAIS feel like women but if they are men they should be treated as men and shouldn't be given a free pass to female spaces.

My bad if you are not a troll. The argument was suspicious to me, b/c we get the same arguments from TRAs all the time. I don't blindly trust people on the internet.

I get that. TQs have made everyone tired. I can't trust most people myself so we're in the same boat 🙃

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Kindness is not an all or nothing game. It is situational, and most people would agree with me on that. If you go through life acting like an asshole that's your choice. I will say this: everyone has issues with their appearance. If you consider yourself ugly well most of the world also considers themselves ugly. Having a medical condition is not the same as opting to alter your body. It's really that simple.

People with CAIS phenotypically are women, they are born with female genitalia and have other female characteristics. They don't have female reproductive organs (womb, ovaries). The purpose of women's spaces is to protect women from male violence. Genetically normal males are stronger than genetically normal females 99% of the time, along with potential for rape and killing women through beatings. A person who is phenotypically female (including born with female genitalia) needs protection from male violence and doesn't have the potential to beat a woman to death or rape her. Acknowledging grey areas and making reasonable accommodations for people with intersex conditions is simply the humane thing to do.

[–]Not_a_celebrity 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Kindness is situational, and morality is subjective, which means you don't get to tell me just because unlike you, I don't draw some arbitrary line for my kindness, I'm the asshole.

I only pointed out your hypocrisy. You show no kindness to someone that wants to alter their body, eventhough they didn't choose to have that body and if they go trying to alter it that's more of a reason to be kind towards them. Because they didn't choose that body, they are under no obligation to accept the body that was given to them without their agreement and they can do whatever they want with it.

But you show kindness to someone with a disorder because for the same reason, they didn't choose to have said disorder. You even go dismissing people's feelings when they have issues with their appearance. Lmfao.

Your holier than thou attitude is cringe, seriously. It's not 'human' to make accommodations for intersex individuals. It's your opinion that it's the 'right' thing to do, while I disagree and don't want to make exceptions because intersex are either male or female, they are not exceptions. Just because most people may agree with you doesn't make your opinion any less of an opinion.

Are CAIS men or women? If phenotypically woman then you agree sex can be determined by phenotypes and not just genes. In that case, it's not wrong to let CAIS in female spaces because they would be women. If they are men then it doesn't matter that they are physically weaker than most men. It's not us women's responsibility to take care of a physically weaker man just because you are a misandrist and think other men are aggressive brute rapists that can beat him up if they see him. Men should solve that issue among themselves. Women shouldn't give their spaces up and let a man in just because other men have anger issues and can't be calm around a man that's not as strong.

[–]8bitgay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If it's a matter of kindness to call someone with CAIS a women, trans right activists can use that to say be kind to people that don't like their sex and body and want to be the opposite sex, call them the opposite sex, treat them as the opposite sex, let them use spaces for their opposite sex, etc.

That's the problem.

Frankly I'm fine with calling people their preferred pronouns, or the name they decide. Your example is extremely simplistic though, since by your language alone on this sentence you imply people only identify as man/woman. Activists moved past this a long time ago.

But anyway, being kind to call them the way they want to be called doesn't mean they are whatever they want to be. Letting them use spaces that aren't theirs isn't being kind. Where is the kindness towards the other people involved? Why should, for example, gay men lose their safe space, because someone who identifies as a man decides they need to be part of it?

[–]Not_a_celebrity 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with the second part. That's why, if a woman says she's a man, I will not call her by her preferred pronouns. I don't want to indulge in her delusions, and don't want her to get further away from reality. After pronouns, she will make others treat her as a man, let her go in men's spaces, etc. To stop women from invading gay men's and gay women's spaces, we shouldn't call TQs by their preferred pronouns. When they say they are the opposite sex, we should stop them right there, before it's too late and they move on to the next stage, which is invading the spaces of the opposite sex that they have been doing for years now.

[–]Ladis_Wascheharuum 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is sex determined by phenotype or genotype?

Phenotype, strictly speaking. There is a lot of talk about primary and secondary sexual characteristics, and I think people are getting confused about it all. Male and female, biologically, are defined by the gamete-producing organs of an organism. In humans, that means ovaries or testes. This is fundamental because it's what sexual reproduction is based on and what the entire concept of sex is built upon.

Nearly every human was born with structures to produce one of the types of gametes: sperm or ova. Despite any disorder of sexual development or intersex condition, it's virtually certain they have either ovaries or testes.

Having none at birth is a very rare anomaly. From strictly biological view, such a person is neuter. (Despite this, an argument can be made that they still have a sex that can be determined by which organs "should" have developed if whatever blocking factor were removed.) Having both at birth is beyond rare and biologically such a person would be a true hermaphrodite. These two kinds of people are the only ones who can possibly claim to be neither male nor female, or both, and there are maybe a few thousands or tens of thousands of them in the entire world.

For example: Caster Semenya was born with testes, just ones that didn't develop properly and remained internal. Despite outward appearance, Caster Semenya is male, biologically.

[–]8bitgay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's like someone has a gene for being tall, but the gene is not expressed so they end up being short. Are they actually tall or short?

In this situation, they're short. But going with the trans analogy, if they wore high heels they'd still be short.