Slurs and Hipocrisy

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[–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I seen recently on Twitter (GC side) They wanted to stop using "bitch" since it was an insult used predominantly towards women... But wanted to go ableist slur like it's nothing.

Just curious-- do you have any recent examples (for s/lgbdropthet)? I ask because I've seen people say some (e.g. "cunt" or "slut" on occasion, or there was a user going around with a made-up slur about bisexuals a few months ago...), but haven't noticed anything glaring more recently.

Ableist or other types? Thankfully I haven't seen any other kinds of slurs (like the ones you mentioned alongside that one user who I'm pretty sure know who you're referring). As for ableist, it depends on how you see it: if we're going by historical and slurs are slurs regardless of "reclaim" or "not meaning what it used to," then yeah. I have seen people used slurs such as nuts, stupid, idiot, etc. I think there was one user (got banned and called out for it too) who said hysterical/hysteria.

Not only what you mentioned, but also important to recognize that people who act like pos shouldn't automatically be seen as having a mental illness. It's just them being an ass.

[–]CuntWorshiperWomenholic full time | vagina fetishist part-time 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I think you losing it a bit.

B**** isn’t simply a “insult used predominantly towards women”. B**** is a misogynistic slur used in sex-based discrimination. B**** isn’t unisex. When b**** is used towards men is used to insult them by comparing them to females, not because B**** can be anyone regardless of sex.

I think is very reasonable that, in a feminist forum, women banned misogynistic slurs. You must likely won’t see the t-word in trans forums (although they love misogynistic slurs). You won’t see f-homophobic-word on here, unless it’s being called out, or pointed out. People pick their fights, people have priorities which makes sense because if you try to fight all the battles you can’t win any.

I seen recently on Twitter (GC side) They wanted to stop using "bitch" since it was an insult used predominantly towards women... But wanted to go ableist slur like it's nothing.

I see that you genuinely try to be impartial but you’re failing. As people always do, you’re demanding shit and judging women more passionately than you do to anyone else. I have see many times misogynistic slurs being used here. I personally don’t care (I’m not the language police here). It seems like you don’t care too since you didn’t mind mentioning it, although, god forbid someone saying “idiot” right? Sure ableism is much more prevalent and dominant in the world than misogyny.

What I actually find insulting is you comparing silly insults such as ‘idiot’ ‘stupid’ ‘dumb’ ‘hysterical’ that can be used against anyone regardless of sex, age or race to b**** (and maybe other misogynistic slurs worse than b*) and queer or f** which are slurs used against specific demographics that were, and still are, explicitly marginalized for belonging to the demographics they belong to, as if they had the same weight and social meaning.

[–]Rag3 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What I actually find insulting is you comparing silly insults such as ‘idiot’ ‘stupid’ ‘dumb’ ‘hysterical’ that can be used against anyone regardless of sex, age or race to b**** (and maybe other misogynistic slurs worse than b) and queer or f* which are slurs used against specific demographics that were, and still are, explicitly marginalized for belonging to the demographics they belong to, as if they had the same weight and social meaning.

All of this.

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All of this.

So slurs or insults with negative origins are okay as long as they don't effect you personally... Even if there's those who get affected by multiple times. Alright then. That's nice to know.

[–]Rag3 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Didn’t say that. I want to see examples of those slurs being used in this s/ because I’ve yet to see it. I’d love to know how to correct the usage of these terms as they apply colloquially, today.

Also, don’t assume you know anything about my status, thanks.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People pick their fights, people have priorities which makes sense because if you try to fight all the battles you can’t win any.

Yup, exactly. I think this is important to consider, because we are NEVER going to be a "perfect" community and that's totally okay. I think we can talk about issues when they arise but it is highly unlikely that we could, for example, root out all disagreement here about slurs.

Someone here once observed that the only thing we all agree on here is that we need to drop the T from LGB. I think we vastly agree on many other things as well but the heterogeneity of perspectives on this sub is actually really huge (and I think that's cool!). Sometimes that means compromising.

[–]Rag3 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Can you write all my comments for me? You phrase things so eloquently. ♥️

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aw, that's so sweet of you <3 thanks!!! That means a lot. Sometimes I feel like I'm just fumbling for stuff in the dark haha.

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why the fuck are you going off on me and how the fuck am I demanding shit? I just stated that it's hypocritical to be against some forms of slurs but completely okay with others. You do know I'm also a woman right? I've stated here (in the sub) that multiple times. I also been called a bitch and idiot during my life, just as I've been called the n word for being Afro, that's why I'm making this post.

We're trying to call out people for using queer when we also use (and apparently some of even go as far to justify) slurs ourselves. We can't make ourselves look like some victim when we actively do the same in using discriminatory language and condoning it. Those that also have a history of being discriminatory. I've stated I don't care if people use ANY slurs, I just dislike when we try to police the use of some but are okay with others. Misogyny and ableism are both fucking important and should be dealt with. What? Do you think disabled women don't exist? Or even disabled lgb don't exist?

Okay? Apparently other types of discrimination aren't important, I guess? Just fuck them. Ableist slurs, just as slurs against race, sex, sexuality, etc. Are also used against a specific demographic and still are (people use the r-word and Autism like it's nothing). All discrimination is bad. Shit, I can even find you links to phrases that are racial in origin. Would you be okay with the usage of that? Things like peanut gallery, sold down the river, the itis, gyp, etc.? These are things people still use.

I'm the "silly" one for calling out hipocrisy? Alright, mate. Whatever you say.

Since you want to go far on protecting (some) women, there are ableist slurs that are used agaisnt women. I brought up hysteria/hysterical which was a term used against women. The reasoning behind this was that hysteria comes from "womb" and therefore women can get it. Alongside, some even consider "barren" to be sexist/misogynistic. If you want evidence for this, I can provide it too. Especially for hysteria being a misogynistic slur (but apparently to you, it's "insulting" despite the fact of its ties to misogyny and ableism which women in the past had to deal with and the god awful "treatment" for these women). And I have still seen people use "hysterical" to refer to women. Not men, but women.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.medicalnewstoday.com/amp/articles/the-controversy-of-female-hysteria

In the link, you can find some of the so called "treatment" proposed to be done on these women. If you want more evidence, I can provide because I'm willing to be civil.

Edit: words

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have seen people used slurs such as nuts, stupid, idiot, etc. I think there was one user (got banned and called out for it too) who said hysterical/hysteria.

Ok... I guess I have trouble seeing these as slurs. I know "idiot" for example does have discriminatory roots, and I think name-calling in general is reductive, trivializes the problem and is not a good way to further discussion. But what do you propose? That people stop using all these words?

I am against people bashing people, e.g. "trans people are so stupid," because it helps nothing and obscures the fact that many people who have fallen for the trans cult are desperate and in need of help. However, I kind of get when people bash actions or ideas, e.g. "That claim is so STUPID!" Does this type of comment bother you as well?

Not only what you mentioned, but also important to recognize that people who act like pos shouldn't automatically be seen as having a mental illness. It's just them being an ass.

People jumping to assumptions is not helpful, I agree, but in many cases there is reason to believe that mental illness is playing a role, and I think it's reasonable to observe, "This person may be mentally ill, here is why I think that..." But not dismiss it like "oh you mentally ill piece of shit" in an insult, which I have seen on here.

[–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ok... I guess I have trouble seeing these as slurs. I know "idiot" for example does have discriminatory roots, and I think name-calling in general is reductive, trivializes the problem and is not a good way to further discussion. But what do you propose? That people stop using all these words?

I wouldn't say stop using them, that's impossible since it's so normalized and people don't know the history of it, but I just want the hipocrisy of being okay with some slurs but not others to stop. For example, I'm Afro, I've been called the hard r for all that I've been living... I don't have an issue with people (especially white) using the n word, especially when it's not out of malicious intent. Becuase as I said, slur or not, people have the right to say anything they want. I do have an issue with those who want to censor the use of n-word from non-blacks but are completely okay and go as far to justify using mental illness as an insult or other types of slurs.

However, I kind of get when people bash actions or ideas, e.g. "That claim is so STUPID!" Does this type of comment bother you as well?

No, as long as people don't try to censor others from using other types of slurs or things as negatively connotations. It's just that I dislike the hipocrisy of being okay with usage of some slurs and not others as I stated before. You want to use x slurs? Fine, but don't call out others who use yz slurs. Either all slurs shouldn't be used or all can. It shouldn't be selective. That's also language policing and hypocritical.

If you're having trouble with some of the words, I can explain. Nuts was used to describe those with mental disabilities, stupid was used to refer to those in a stupor, and hysteria (not only ableist but misogynistic) was used against women.

Edit: words

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't say stop using them, that's impossible since it's so normalized and people don't know the history of it, but I just want the hipocrisy of being okay with some slurs but not others to stop.

I understand why you hold this view, however I think it is unlikely you will be able to get people to agree or to consistently act this way because your view of what is morally wrong seems different than others' (in this comment thread, at least).

Your view:

  • People should be able to say any slur, and stop getting angry or protesting against when other people call them slurs.

Some other people's view:

  • Some slurs are worse than others, and of course the worst ones should not be said; a word like "idiot" whose meaning has fundamentally changed from its usage several centuries ago is not equally harmful as is a word like "cunt" or the f-slur or n-word.

These people are being hypocritical by your standards, but not by their standards, is I guess what I'm trying to say here. If you want to change minds you'd have to get to the root of disagreement and suggest to people that they ought to change their standards to match yours.

If you think of it as variables-- you are treating slurs in a binary way, i.e. slurs/not slur, and all slurs are equally bad. But many people simply don't subscribe to this belief, and that is why many people on this thread don't agree.

I might remove this later but I'll add... I have ADHD. Sometimes words can be worse than slurs, and vice versa. I would be bothered if someone called me the r-slur but not "idiot" because "idiot" is not really about my diagnosis, it is a casually applied insult. However, if someone called me "lazy" I would find that VERY hurtful and it would be harmful because being "lazy" is a major stereotype of people with ADHD. Even though it is not a slur, I would argue that it is far worse than the word "idiot" in that context. Whereas-- unless I am much mistaken-- "idiot" isn't used to stigmatize a group specifically these days, even though it could be used in a targeted way towards someone with a disability just like "clueless" or "confused" or any other put-down. Just my thoughts.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There is nothing recent or strange about feminists wanting misogynistic slurs to be gone.

[–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And there is also nothing wrong with the disabled people wanting ableist slurs to be gone either. I cannot expect them to be "for all women" when they can't even stop and think about some of the slurs they use or usage of mental disabilities as negative connotation.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And what are those? Because you are really vague about what slurs you are upset about and you seem to mix up insults and slurs. You also consider idiot a slur while it was a medical term CENTURIES ago and has evolved into just being an insult without any medical connotation or targeting a specific group of people which is what a slur is.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I refrained from commenting on this post but OP is tilting at windmills here and doesn't know what s/he wants.

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How exactly? I just stated that I believe hipocrisy shouldn't be tolerated. If slurs are so bad then none of them should be said. Not some, not two or three, but all. Or all can be said. That's it. I had no problem with people using them, it's just the hipocrisy and act of policing other discriminatory language (but not ableist) that bugs me.

We talk about how TQ+ shouldn't use homo/biphobic slurs but we sit here and use mental disorders as ways to insult them (as i stated to some others, and thank god for moderators existing, you can go to the moderation log and see how some try to use autism as an insult for example if you go through it). You can go outside of this sub, and see people use retard or autism without being called out. But I'm the one who us tilting at windmills? Ugh.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Blah blah blah hypocrisy. Several people have asked you for specific references and you haven't delivered. Also, are you familiar with the etymological fallacy?

[–]BiHorror 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These are terms that have been used against disabled people as a way to dehumanize and belittle them in the past. They were medical terms but as I said, they then became a way to belittle disabled people. This would be considered slurs. Today, they're considered everyday insults because they "changed" in meaning, the thing is, this "change in meaning" still connects to the original meaning. For example, idiot is used to describe someone who is untelligent, and this is also how it was used in the past. Instead of just creating a new word to do this, they choose a slur. If you like, I can give you evidence on why these are considered slurs.

without any medical connotation or targeting a specific group of people which is what a slur is.

And with this logic, this can be used for other types of slurs. Within time, they can "change meaning" as well. The thing is, people don't allow it to and that's what I find hypocritical about this. How can we be okay with xyz (which, not even using idiot, but I have seen people use autism and retard, which are slurs still and not called out for it. Just on here from time to time or another sub but on other websites and off the internet. Not only this but people using disabilities to describe something in negative connotation) but say "stop! You can't say that" to others. It's either all can be used or none can.

Either all slurs are okay or none are. Anything can be used as an insult or none can. If we are selective, we are also being just as language policing and hypocritical.

Edit: words