DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 6 fun18 insightful - 5 fun19 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

Gc people tend to be homophobic bigots OFTEN, ive found. I unsubbed because they were suggesting firing someone over being trans at all. Just as bad as the gc on reddit, who were just as bad as TRAs. But that doesn’t mean lesbians who are radfems are all extremist trash and we should distance from them. If we had paid more attention to them years ago it’s unlikely we would have gotten so far down the TRA rabbit hole.

Also, any woman who defends women against partriarchy, or even uses the word, has the “all men attitude” to people who don’t want to actually address any issues. It’s as if a woman failing to provide a “not all men” disclaimer before every statement with “men” in it has an “all men attitude.” No one means “all” of anyone, that’s not logical and I doubt the speakers feel it’s every man

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

I read gc sub before finding lgbdropthet and there were definitely some "all men" attitudes from SOME of them. At dropthet, there was an article about gay men with body issues and getting botched cosmetic surgeries, and top comment was some radfem gloating about how it was men getting a taste of their own medicine (my words, but that was the gist of it.) another one was me asking a question about why something was a certain wayand i got a one word response. MEN. Apparently it was all our doing lol

Again let me say that I don't think all gc lesbians are extremists and of course I recognize and share elements of their beliefs (gender stereotypes need to go). I'm not saying gc L need to go, they are lgb. Just like the conservatives here., for example. But we shouldn't assume there is only one belief system that will solve the TRA problem.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm not saying gc L need to go, they are lgb. Just like the conservatives here., for example. But we shouldn't assume there is only one belief system that will solve the TRA problem.

Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page then. Or at least, a lot of people here, maybe not some of the GC, lol.

To be honest, this is exactly why I am wary of GC. I am not a guy but I do not want to encourage that sort of behavior from anyone. Women are an oppressed group-- and men face a lot of gender-related difficulties specific to them, those things are not mutually exclusive and there's no need to villainize an entire group of people. If we are going to villainize anyone, villainize narcissistic, power-abusing people.. which for better or worse, can be found in any group.

[–]writerlylesbian 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

But who are women oppressed by? Women and men are not both oppressed by 'gender'. Women are oppressed by men, partly THROUGH gender, i.e. sex role stereotyping. If men don't like the sex role stereotyping they are being expected to perform, then they need to do something about it. Talking about 'some people' from 'all groups' being bad completely invisibilises the fairly significant and obvious sex-based pattern of oppression that is going on.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Women and men are not both oppressed by 'gender'.

I am conflating "gender" and "sex" as the same thing here, I guess I should have clarified because "gender" is such a hot-button word.

Talking about 'some people' from 'all groups' being bad completely invisibilises the fairly significant and obvious sex-based

Yes, but the thing I am specifically responding to is: women who say "all men are bad". When really, it is a structural problem, and villainizing every individual man you run across is not going to make a change to that structure.

If men don't like the sex role stereotyping they are being expected to perform, then they need to do something about it.

I mean, I agree. I am not sure how interested men in this space are in doing that.

I think we are pretty similar in views, despite my poor choice of wording, so let me clarify a little further.

What I said was:

"Women are an oppressed group-- and men face a lot of gender-related difficulties specific to them, those things are not mutually exclusive"

For example, men having a relative difficulty in sharing emotions and in finding people to share emotions with, because it is not "manly". Are the difficulties men face from societal prescriptions about sex/gender equivalent to the systematic violence women go through? No. But some people are speaking in black and white, that "all men are bad" "all men are x" etc. While I totally understand how someone could end up feeling that way based on their personal experiences-- we've got to have some nuance if we are to move forward.

I did not intend to make "invisible" the pattern of oppression that women go through-- my comments, out of context, might give someone that impression, but I know that pattern exists. I was talking about the specific issue of LGB men saying that they feel uncomfortable with GC because of the anti-men sentiment that some GC users apparently display.. or at least I thought that's what this post was about, I'm not sure I know anymore.

[–]writerlylesbian 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I was talking about the specific issue of LGB men saying that they feel uncomfortable with GC because of the anti-men sentiment that some GC users apparently display

Lol. In other words, men being uncomfortable with women who point out the realities of men oppressing women, and then say all those women are just bitter manhaters.

This post was an excuse for people who don't like feminists to shit all over feminists. It's grounded in misogyny. For years, radical feminists were the ONLY group who were standing up to the transactivists. They were the ONLY allies lesbians had. Gay men certainly weren't there giving a shit about lesbians. That has only happened very recently, because now gay men are being pressured to like pussy.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Gay men certainly weren't there giving a shit about lesbians. That has only happened very recently, because now gay men are being pressured to like pussy.

I am new to this whole corral, so I wasn't there back before gay men were being pressured, but I will take your word for it.

In other words, men being uncomfortable with women who point out the realities of men oppressing women, and then say all those women are just bitter manhaters.

I agree, this is a pattern I've seen come up a lot when people criticize feminists of any kind. But, when some disgruntled feminists (or people claiming to be feminists, I guess they could secretly be trolls) say stuff like "All men are violent", I am not sure how to defend that. I just don't think it's okay for people to make sweeping generalizations even towards the oppressor group-- which men are.

I guess I am making a major assumption here-- I am assuming that the vast majority of posters on s/LGBdroptheT, including the men, realize that misogyny and sysematic violence towards women, are real and important to talk about. I thought everyone was on the same page about that, but maybe some of these people complaining about "radfems" actually do not believe that.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So some GC feminists and Rad fems hate women or gay men, and therefore all rad fems and GC feminists are to be discarded?

Even though it was women in general and feminists in particular who provided the support that won gays (LGB) their rights?

The world is not black & white, nor are people, nor are organizations

Right now, LGB needs everyone it can get to retain its rights, so I would suggest find allies wherever you can no matter what you call them or what they call themselves.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

So some GC feminists and Rad fems hate women or gay men, and therefore all rad fems and GC feminists are to be discarded?

Where did I say that?

The world is not black & white, nor are people, nor are organizations

I agree. Unfortunately there are many people in this thread who seem to disagree.

so I would suggest find allies wherever you can no matter what you call them or what they call themselves.

That has been my position throughout this entire post.

I'll just summarize where I am at.

  • LGBdroptheT needs more allies.
  • I would love it if GC and the non-GC'ers could just put aside their differences, and get along.
  • I have asked the non-GC OP what constructive actions we could take to address the criticisms she brought up, and she seems uninterested in finding a solution.
  • While trying to get a better sense of the relationship between GC and non-GC-- that is, asking people questions-- I used the word "misandry", which I did not realize was a loaded term, and a GC commenter suggested I was an MRA ally and a "handmaiden".

Apart from a few lovely individuals who I learned some things from, most people do not seem interested in having a constructive conversation on this subject.

You seemed cool when we talked before. If you genuinely want to talk about this stuff more, feel free to DM me, but I am done trying to engage with people here on this topic.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do appreciate the dialogue with you very much, and dialogue is the only way we will go forward.

The reason I am on these subs is because LGB and women's rights are very methodically being attacked worldwide by sinister forces (as I just typed to you in another response) and LGB and women have been allies in the past and have to be now, because NUMBERS. We need all hands on deck.

In my experience of feminism, going back to the 1970s, there were women who were "misandrists" and some, if not most, of their anger was justifiable, especially back then. But most women in the women's movement were just concerned about getting rights so that they could have the same opportunities as men to determine their own lives.

My suggestion to everyone who cares about our rights - and, in the US, by changing the definition of "sex" to include "gender identity" Trans, Inc. is taking both women and LGB rights away in one fell swoop - is to get past the fringe members, get past the insults (I know that's hard, especially if the insults are personal) and get on with saving our rights.

We are in the fight of our lives. Again, we need all hands on deck.

And really, as a woman who grew up back when women really had to fight for basic rights, it's important that we each find inner strength to get past hurdles and insults, because the next few decades are going to rough no matter what, and we each will need all the backbone we can get.

Again, thanks for the respectful dialogue. Thanks to the mods and SAIDIT too!