DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]Astrid2448[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

We are associated with radfems though. It isn’t some misconception, it’s true. Any anti-TQ group you make will be immediately filled with radfems, like you said they consistently fight against it. And radfems did use detrans to further their beliefs. They often stalk other subreddits, both when they agree with them and when they don’t. And the TRAs do the same thing.

I can understand why you feel that we are not being attacked by radfems as they are definitely more open to listening to LGB people in some contexts. However, I stand by saying their willingness to hear you talk is conditional. They listen because you agree with them on trans issues. If you say anything that goes against their ideology, they are not going to listen to you either. And like TRAs, they don’t treat people they disagree with well, because they see themselves as morally superior. Also like TRAs, this applies if you agree with 90% of what they are saying but don’t agree on the 10%, and they seek to control the narrative. On reddit, they were happy to mass downvote gay people on LGBdroptheT if it meant that the radfems could boost themselves to the top of the page. They are also generally less kind to gay men than they are to lesbians.

I agree that the extremism seen in radical feminism is partially due to liberal feminists attacking women’s rights. However, it isn’t the whole story. Most radfems were already hardcore liberal feminists before becoming upset with them over trans rights issues. Had trans rights activists been less extreme, they would just be part of far left feminism as another loud SJW on Twitter. That’s what I’m pointing out.

I appreciate your thoughts and think you stated them well, btw.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Maybe the issue then is radicals and not radfems... I am still not clear on the difference between a radfem and a gender critical feminist. I know certain ones were trans woman are just men and I will treat them as such, and then others who were like for trans rights but not at the expense of woman’s rights.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I am also unclear on this, I have seen people say that in a couple other places on this thread.

Maybe the issue then is radicals and not radfems...

I would agree. I am not a radical, and the stuff we are working to accomplish is not radical-- ending the violence that TRAs promote and perpetrate, and their anti-scientific views. I do think that some subset of GC people are more casual, and it sounds like some significant subset are not.

[–]writerlylesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The radical in radical feminism means 'root' - not extreme. The feminism that seeks to get to the root of women's oppression. Basically, that means analysing and deconstructing society/women's place in society/examining common experiences of oppression women have in order to find similarities and patterns and understand how the oppression of women works, in order to start to resist and push back against it.

Unsurprisingly, male violence against women is a central cause of women's oppression in societies all around the world. That is why radical feminists go on so much about it. Radical feminists have been unpopular for talking about male violence against women since forever.

What I always ask is, who are these people who are so adamantly against wanting to acknowledge that violence against women is a problem. I mean, we are talking about thousands of women who die every year at the hands of men. This is a structural issue. It's not about individuals.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I completely agree with the positions you outlined. It seems to me, though-- and correct me if I'm wrong-- most people here would agree violence is perpetrated against women in a structural way, but they feel uncomfortable with GC as a community. The only specific beliefs I have heard people disagree over in this thread was the couple comments about sex difference in the brain.

[–]writerlylesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

People are uncomfortable with GC as a community because people don't like it when women stand up for themselves and other women and say no to men. That is what the core issue is here. Feminists trying to appease men and not be threatening to men is what got us the shit-show of liberal feminism. It does not work. Instead of policing women for being angry at men, or generalising about men [oh the horror! how dare a woman not centre men's hurt feelings when talking about herself and her anger at what men do to women], maybe police men for being the ones who are raping and killing women.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Okay, it sounds like we agree on the important issues here. What I am wondering is, how do we accomplish our goals while not alienating gay/bi men? I am not asking as a rhetorical question, but from the motivation of, "How can we do this whole drop-the-T thing better?"

My feeling is, we need all the allies we can get right now, since TRAs are leading the mainstream discussion. The OP is arguing we are in danger of losing some of those allies. You could say it's possible OP is just wrong, and that no gay men are actually being alienated from our droptheT movement, but the ones who spoke up did said they felt that way so it seems worth considering.

[–]writerlylesbian 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Look, if there are a group of gay men who disagree with GC feminism so strongly, then there is nothing stopping them from breaking away and forming their own droptheT movement. By all means they can do the work of developing their position statements, lobbying governments, having conferences and getting all the death threats and rape threats like GC feminists and radical feminists do on the regular. They can look for allies wherever they think they're going to find them, though if they don't want to work with feminists then all they've got left is the conservatives who don't like transactivists, really.

You're looking at this through the wrong lens. Radical feminists built the resistance to trans ideology, because radical feminists were the only ones who cared about this issue while it was still only affecting a small minority of women. The radfem critique of trans ideology is only one tiny part of a much bigger political framework that is about looking at all the ways women are oppressed, but that tends to get forgotten because trans has become such a big issue. As the influence and toxicity of the transmovement has grown, a greater cross-section of people have stumbled across radical feminism precisely because radical feminists were the only group who had a functional critique of the trans movement. More or less, GC feminism grew out of that. A movement with a broader appeal that is still mostly founded on radical feminist political frameworks. Though naturally as the size and popularity of the movement grows, the understanding of the politics often gets watered down and distorted. Radical feminists and GC feminists are the ones who have done all the heavy lifting here. So it's laughable for a bunch of dudes to come along and threaten they will take their oh-so-important non-contributions elsewhere if feminists don't change our entire movement to suit them. My response would be - okay, off you go, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Now, as seen in something like the LGB Alliance in the UK, clearly, there are gay men who are capable of working with lesbians who are radical feminists, and clearly there are lesbians who are radical feminists who are willing to work with and ally with gay men. That group was founded by a group of extremely experienced political activists who have been around for decades, and who made great contributions to the original LGB rights movement, and the 2nd wave feminist movement. If I'm going to look for a group to get behind, I, personally, would choose to ally myself with a group like that, who, as their founding principles have a commitment to advocating for homosexuals, as well as explicitly articulating a feminist politics and recognising how lesbians are affected by both homophobia and sexism.

But if there are a group of gay dudes who think the winning strategy is to built an anti-feminist movement that focuses solely on being transcritical, I'm not going to stop them. Any woman who wants to join that movement is likewise welcome to do so. But I sure as hell wouldn't be.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Majority of gay men I know were not part of LGBDropTheT, many were even supporting TRA, until transmen started annoying them. And only after they got annoyed enough they joined LGBDropTheT. Some gay men, like myself, were here early on, but there were too few of us.

[–]writerlylesbian 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey - I enjoy reading your comments here, I like them a lot because you have a lot of good insights. There are plenty of gay men, bi men and even a few straight men who have joined in and found productive areas of agreement where they can work with women and lesbians on this TRA issue. That's why I'm not too concerned about those sitting on the sidelines complaining, because there are people like that who will criticise every political movement, without ever contributing anything, and without ever intending to. Anyone who has been around political activism for any length of time knows better than to indulge them.