New poll: 59% of US men support a ban on TiMs in women's sports, but only 46% of women support banning TiMs. Frankly, I'm sick of women who won't stand up for other women.

submitted by BEB from politico.com

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[–]persistentlywoman 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

they think they ARE supporting other women.

being treated like an enemy that didn't give a fuck about women kept me from peaking earlier.

[–]BEB[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I am relatively old. In my bubble, I thought things were going swimmingly for US women relative to what we had in my youth, until I woke up (thanks, Bruce Jenner!) and the house was on fire.

I had no idea there was a thing called Lib Feminism, or Third Wave feminism, or Gender Studies, or Queer Theory - it was all news to me, and is still news to many of my similar-aged friends.

But when I did realize that the hard, hard work of the 2nd Wave feminists who I remember well, was being undone by these other women who called themselves "feminists" - when I myself was attacked by young "feminists" for espousing the basic tenets of feminism - I was like, "Listen young lady, you don't get to give back the rights my mother, my grandmother, my great-grandmother and millions of women throughout the ages fought and sacrificed for."

And that's where I stand today. I understand the "folly of youth" - I did more than my share of stupid things and still do, but any of these women, of any age, who are bending over backwards to destroy our sex-based rights, our safe-spaces and our sports, are going to get yelled at by me. Traitors.

[–]persistentlywoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

being angry and resentful towards them is one thing. considering them traitors disregards the specifics of their experience and what lead to the formation of their beliefs. all of which is the same misogyny and sexism which we all try our best to cope with. when there are plenty of women participating in opposing women's rights in myriad ways, the special hostility libfems and radfems cultivate towards each other seems particularly counterproductive and almost designed to stifle any possibility of mutual ground. and the elitism, judgment and mean-spiritedness that both camps engage in towards each other keeps a lot of women like me from wanting to even identify as feminist. why would I want to be a feminist when it seems to mean rejecting or accepting other women based on their perceived moral purity?

I understand the anger and frustration because I feel it too. I left 'queer' spaces because I was tired of seeing other women get slammed for everything and nothing. I hoped these spaces would have more compassion and empathy. instead I am finding the same cruel judgements, like we all forget how fucking hard it is to be a woman once we disagree ideologically. of course you are entitled to feel however you do and I don't discount that as an individually complex experience with a great deal of pain and struggle behind it. but you can't expect women to come here and see themselves being called traitors and handmaidens by women who clearly believe they are superior and expect to gain any ground with them.

[–]BEB[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that the animosity between rad fems and lib fems is counterproductive and depressing as we should be united to fight for women. It is a much better tactic to attempt to persuade the persuadable ones instead of yelling at or disparaging them.

However, I will not tolerate the smarmy lib fems, especially the ones who scream ageist or looks-based insults, or who go along with or participate in TRA verbal or physical attacks. All one has to do to see this kind of handmaiden is look at the protest crowds at rad fem events - there are women hurling vicious abuse and threats of violence at other women, right alongside the TRAs.

I will not tolerate the powerful ones who still call themselves "feminists" yet are dismantling women's rights and safe spaces. They should know better because they themselves remember when US women still lacked some basic civil rights, such as Nancy Pelosi, Kamala Harris, Dianne Feinstein, Liz Warren and Tammy Baldwin.

These women, who know full well what women went through and what 2nd Wave feminists fought for because they themselves lived it, are deliberately and systematically destroying almost everything feminists fought for. I have no hesitation in disparaging them or calling them traitors.

[–]one1won 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but you can't expect women to come here and see themselves being called traitors and handmaidens by women who clearly believe they are superior and expect to gain any ground with them.

This strikes me as a perception problem.

So, Women who, having more knowledge or experience on an issue, express frustration and criticism = "clearly believe they are superior"?

Sad. Comes across as expecting women to self censor, "just be nice", and always offer "kid glove" treatment for another person's fragility. How about: NO. How about: doing what adults ought to do, take responsibility for your own feelings and insecurities. (What women want men, of all sorts, to do, also!)

[–]WildApples 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You make a good point, but this is not limited to feminists. That kind of purity seeking and vilification is something groups do when they become too insular, and the inherently dehumanizing internet exacerbates the issue by facilitating zealous censorship and ostracism, which causes both the censoring group and the censored group to become more insular and polarized.

[–]EvaWumben 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same here. And that's the abuse they throw out.