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[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Since I was a toddler in the late 1950s, I've been a huge fan of flamboyant, "gender nonconforming men" like Liberace and Little Richard - and many, many more. But I never got why such guys were labelled "feminine" and "effeminate." In my view, males who are not conventionally masculine are not the same as feminine. At all. Males calling themselves feminine and effeminate, and others joining in, has always struck me as lazy appropriation. Why can't they come up with their own words to describe and refer to this particular way of being male?

[–]MezozoicGay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Males calling themselves feminine and effeminate, and others joining in

In my experience, the opposite is true. Men were calling other "not masculine enough" men as "are you are woman or something?", and those men were accepting the term, as everyone was saying like that about them. I am being called a lot with "you are looking like <slur for women that does not exist in English>" or "are you a gay?" - because my facial features are more "women-like", I am in general very kind and often saying "sorry", and because of my choice of clothing (especially during summer). Sadly I can't wear cloths I would prefer to wear (something like toga during summer, for example), because then I would be claimed as a pervert and maybe even police would be called. I remember my grandmother said that my grandfather, who was killed by communists before I was born, was often saying about "rules of a man", and among those rules there were things like "never ask women if they are comfortable with you", "do not be kind to ones who don't deserve", "never apologise", etc - and for some reason she was very sad that I am not following those rules and acting "opposite to a man". So in general it is men, who are afraid of their manliness are calling others who do not conform to their standarts as "second class people" - or as women or gays to them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think an issue here is different languages and different cultures. IIRC, you are from and grew up in the Cold War-era former USSR - a place where anti-gay animus, and sexism too, manifested in ways different to how homophobia and sexism were manifested in more democratic nations of the West.

In my post I was referring to the way the words "feminine" and "effeminate" are used to refer to males specifically and only in the Anglophone world. Both words, after all, originated as Middle English ones that, in turn, came from Latin words:

late Middle English: from Latin femininus, from femina ‘woman’.

late Middle English: from Latin effeminatus, past participle of effeminare ‘make feminine’, from ex- (expressing a change of state) + femina ‘woman’.

I didn't mean to suggest that "feminine" and "effeminate" were/are used in the exact same way - or used at all - in other languages and other cultures. Given the vast differences between Russian and the other Slavic languages and English, and most of the other languages in the world as well, I'd never presume that people with different "mother tongues" would use these Middle English terms, or even know of them.

I think homophobia is universal, but the ways in which it is manifested in words and in deeds alike varies from place to place depending on the specific language and culture of each place.

I remember my grandmother said that my grandfather, who was killed by communists before I was born, was often saying about "rules of a man", and among those rules there were things like "never ask women if they are comfortable with you", "do not be kind to ones who don't deserve", "never apologise", etc - and for some reason she was very sad that I am not following those rules and acting "opposite to a man". So in general it is men, who are afraid of their manliness are calling others who do not conform to their standarts as "second class people" - or as women or gays to them.

This illustrates that whilst members of both sexes can be homophobic and sexist, women like your grandmother often enforce sexism and homophobia often to go along with and show support and love for men in their lives (your grandfather), and to bolster up male supremacy more generally.

My own view is that homophobia and sexism both originated in large part due to male fears of their own inadequacy compared to other men - whom they saw as bigger, stronger and more "manly" - and to women, whose ability to bring new life into the world men saw as an awesome power that caused them to feel inferior and less significant. So men decided to take advantage of the situation nature created - wherein grown men have bigger bodies and greater strength than females of all ages, and females after menarche are vulnerable to pregnancy - to create a system of male supremacy and power in which females came under the control of males and were kept in our place and considered second-class and inferior to males. In the process, males who were seen as insufficiently manly and tough were also regarded to be inferior to other men - though not quite as low as females - and were said to be not "real men."

[–]MezozoicGay 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My own view is that homophobia and sexism both originated in large part due to male fears of their own inadequacy compared to other men

Because of the propaganda, that "homosexuality is a preference" and "is a choice" in USSR (and still in most post-USSR countries) there was fear by society, that homosexuality can spread and that West is pushing homosexual agenda towards conservative views of USSR and post-USSR. Fathers were afraid, that their heterosexual son will watch on gays on TV and become one himself. Some men were afraid that they will became homosexual (mostly female leaning bisexual men had such problem and self-hate, which was shown as outter hate towards anyone like themselves).

And one of ways that transgender ideology is reviving homophobia is the same one, they are saying that "homosexuality is genital preference" and that "it is a choice and can be unlearned" - so if it can be "unlearned", then it can be "learned" as well, bringing fear of "spreading homosexuality" back. It is very surreal to read trans activists sometimes - they are repeating what I've heard in USSR from homophobes, they are repeating official position of homophobic goverment and promoting what was stated in anti-gay laws.

In my post I was referring to the way the words "feminine" and "effeminate" are used to refer to males specifically and only in the Anglophone world

In slavic languages word comes from "female" too. However, because we don't have direct word for "woman" and "man" (only "female (used for humans)", "male (used for humans)") - "womanly" and "manly" are also inside our "feminine" and "masculine". So words have a bit more different meanings with English one, that's true. I've noticed that "feminine" is mostly used about looks and body language, while "manly" is mostly used about actions and character, while our "feminine" and "masculine" used in both cases.

In the process, males who were seen as insufficiently manly and tough were also regarded to be inferior to other men - though not quite as low as females - and were said to be not "real men."

I saw a surge of "heighism" in USA around 5-7 years ago, when "not tall enough man is not a man at all", we don't have here such problem, even very short men are not discriminated (at least not much and not often), but I see such behaviour often on the West.

Like someone said here - "effeminate" men and gay men in some asian societies were becoming "third gender", who were "above women" but "below men" and were "doing house work".

So this problem is universal to patriarchic societies, but implemented in different discriminatory ways - and almost always against gay men plus against "not big/strong/tall enough" men. Gay men are seen like "women in men's bodies" very often as well, and in such societies "woman" being high in hierarchy as man - is offensive and scary to power holding men. That may be a reason, why calling a man "you are like woman" was (and a lot of where still is) considered as a slur by other men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because of the propaganda, that "homosexuality is a preference" and "is a choice" in USSR (and still in most post-USSR countries) there was fear by society, that homosexuality can spread and that West is pushing homosexual agenda towards conservative views of USSR and post-USSR.

But where was this propaganda coming from? I suspect it came from within the former USSR and Soviet bloc countries.

In the West, it's been taken as a given for many decades that sexual orientation is innate, that it's not a "preference" or choice - and therefore it can't be spread. Only with the rise of trans ideology in recent years have some people in the West started claiming that sexual orientation is a choice.

I saw a surge of "heighism" in USA around 5-7 years ago, when "not tall enough man is not a man at all", we don't have here such problem, even very short men are not discriminated (at least not much and not often), but I see such behaviour often on the West.

Can you provide some links showing that this is really true? I've lived in the USA for 66 years and never heard of it. I've never once heard anyone say or suggest that "a man who is not tall enough is not a man at all." I have asked my grown sons and their friends and a lot of other people about this and they say they never heard of it either.

BTW, I am taller than my father was, my mother was taller than my father as well, and I dated a number of guys who were my height or shorter. I grew up with, and have known in my own adult life, many M-F couples where the female was as tall or taller than the male. It was never a big deal.

I have also known several men with extreme lower body amputations that have left them at half their normal height - and in wheelchairs. And they say the discrimination they have encountered is not about their height.

Also, how do explain the success of actor Peter Dinklage and the popularity of US TV shows about "little people"?

[–]MezozoicGay 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But where was this propaganda coming from?

In general, people who don't know about something are often phobic to that something, so people were homophobic on their own, but police, Stalin personally (future general secretars were not claiming such directly, only through media) and KGB (previously NKVD) were promoting the idea about "homosexuality can spread" and "if you love men, they must be women" in masses (similar to some TRA ideas: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/796h/_/rfis). Idea about "if homosexual is not woman and denies transition, than this homosexual is just a pervert and paedo" was promoted later by KGB, when many paedo crimes were recorded as gay crimes - like Chikatilo crimes, so those criminals were doing their crimes uninvestigated. This part you already know, thought, as you watched "Citizen X" movie.

Nowadays in most post-USSR countries it is promoted because they want to be "the opposite of USA", so if USA saying "homosexuality can't be spread", then official TV channels are saying "USA want to promote homosexuality on your sons, we should block their influence/propaganda on us with censorship to save our sons and marriages!", implying that heterosexual men can become homosexual under TV influence. I don't remember it was mentioned directly that it can spread, unlike how it was in USSR. At the same time, progress is still moving on and people are not as homophobic and not listening to TV that much, even under propaganda.

Can you provide some links showing that this is really true?

I don't think I can, as it was just something I've been noticing in younger people discussions, memes about difference between 5'11" and 6'0", and general attitude. It can be a new thing among youth, but I've started noticing it 5-7 years ago, so maybe it is when it was started. I was not interested in this much, just something I was observing passively - maybe it is state specific, or demographics specific (or tied with racism, as on my memory most receivers of it were asian men around age of 16-25). I will try to focus my attention more on this, next time I'll encounter it.

[–]gendercritfem[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What do you mean by "being a huge fan of" them?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Fan as in this definition from Oxford:

a person who has a strong interest in or admiration for a particular person or thing: football fans | I'm a fan of this author.

When I was a preschooler, reruns of The Liberace Show were on TV every day where I lived; it was my favorite TV program. Later in life, I went to see him perform a number of times. Same goes for Little Richard, who called himself "the bronze Liberace." From the time I was a girl and first became aware of him, I loved LR, his music and admired his whole schtick - his hair, makeup, trademark "wooo!" piano riff, his lyrics, his remarkable talent, his OTT way of dressing, his enormously entertaining style of performing and giving interviews, his wicked humor, and the way he always told everyone to "Shut up!"

I have recordings, memorabilia and a great deal of material about both Liberace and Little Richard - and am in the midst of writing a manuscript about the cultural importance and influence of L and LR in Western entertainment and pop culture more generally, which also shows that the stage acts of both men derived from that of the great 20th century supper club sensation (and lesbian icon), Hildegarde Loretta Sell, the singer and pianist known worldwide as The Incomparable Hildegarde. Little Richard's "wooo!" piano riff was actually originated by Hildegarde as part of her stage act. And Liberace - who worked as Hildegarde's assistant before he started his own stage career - took his trademark hokey wink from her, and paid homage to her by ending his TV show (and many of of his stage performances) by playing one of the songs that was a centerpiece of her stage and radio performances from circa 19389 on, I'll Be Seeing You. Hildegarde recorded I'll Be Seeing You on one of her albums, and also released it as a single in 1943:

https://archive.org/details/78_ill-be-seeing-you_hildegarde-hildegarde-sammy-fain-irving-kahal-harry-sosnik_gbia0181444b/I'LL+BE+SEEING+YOU+-+HILDEGARDE+-+Hildegarde.flac

https://songbook1.wordpress.com/fx/the-incomparable-hildegarde/

The work I'm in the midst of also looks at, and expresses admiration for, other flamboyant men whom I've also long been a fan of, such as Harvey Fierstein, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Elton John and David Walliams. In the case of Marilyn Peter Robinson, I impart a novel theory - that the "blonde bombshell" look he often sported when dressed in full drag in the late 70s/early 80s was inspired as much - or even more so - by Hildegarde's stage attire and publicity photos than by Marilyn Monroe. I even provide photo arrays showing why I think this. Some of the photos of Hildegarde and of Marilyn Peter R show a really remarkable resemblance, down to the exact shade of their hair and the opera gloves.

All of which I think qualifies me to say I am a fan - a very big fan, in fact.

I am also a fan of other musicians, artists, writers, athletes and such. Is there something wrong with an adult being a fan or admitting to being a fan?

[–]gendercritfem[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, there's nothing wrong with it, I've just never heard of someone being a fan of an entire demographic of people before and wasn't sure exactly what that entailed, or what you found so fascinating about them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But I didn't say I was a fan of "an entire demographic of people." I said

I've been a huge fan of flamboyant, "gender nonconforming men" like Liberace and Little Richard - and many, many more.

I named individuals - Liberace and Little Richard - and spoke of "many, many more." I did not say I was a fan of ALL flamboyant, "gender nonconforming men," just some specific ones. I have known of, and personally known, lots of flamboyant "GNC" men I think are total dicks.

I wouldn't say I found Liberace and Little Richard "fascinating." As a child, I found them highly entertaining, engaging, outrageous, appealing, lovable and admirable. Or to put it more succinctly, I was "a fan" of theirs.

What I did - and still do - find fascinating, is that in the straight-laced, heteronormative 1940s, 50s and 60s, Liberace and Little Richard were able to become US, UK (and European) entertainment industry sensations and superstars with huge followings amongst the general public in the US, UK and some other countries.

After all, Liberace wasn't just a niche nightclub and radio performer - he was one of the biggest media stars of the 1950s through the 80s, and his TV show was one of the most popular US shows of the 1950s and 60s. Similarly, Little Richard was one of the most popular and influential musical artists of his era. He not only inspired artists from the Beatles to Bryan Ferry, he had a hand in discovering and launching the Beatles.

I think this says a great deal about these men as individuals, and it also says a great deal about the cultural milieu in the entertainment industry and more generally in the West at the time. The 50s and 60s are commonly portrayed as a time when homophobia was rife, and in many respects it was. Still, was that the whole story? How come flamboyant guys like Liberace and LR were given a pass?

But that's all sorta beside the point. The original question I was raising was whether it's really apt to describe men such as Liberace, Little Richard - and many others such as Harvey Fierstein, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Elton John and David Walliams - as "feminine" and "effeminate" the way they commonly are. Just because these men in childhood and adulthood seem different to how boys and men in their cultures generally are does not mean they are "like females."