you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]MezozoicGay 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My own view is that homophobia and sexism both originated in large part due to male fears of their own inadequacy compared to other men

Because of the propaganda, that "homosexuality is a preference" and "is a choice" in USSR (and still in most post-USSR countries) there was fear by society, that homosexuality can spread and that West is pushing homosexual agenda towards conservative views of USSR and post-USSR. Fathers were afraid, that their heterosexual son will watch on gays on TV and become one himself. Some men were afraid that they will became homosexual (mostly female leaning bisexual men had such problem and self-hate, which was shown as outter hate towards anyone like themselves).

And one of ways that transgender ideology is reviving homophobia is the same one, they are saying that "homosexuality is genital preference" and that "it is a choice and can be unlearned" - so if it can be "unlearned", then it can be "learned" as well, bringing fear of "spreading homosexuality" back. It is very surreal to read trans activists sometimes - they are repeating what I've heard in USSR from homophobes, they are repeating official position of homophobic goverment and promoting what was stated in anti-gay laws.

In my post I was referring to the way the words "feminine" and "effeminate" are used to refer to males specifically and only in the Anglophone world

In slavic languages word comes from "female" too. However, because we don't have direct word for "woman" and "man" (only "female (used for humans)", "male (used for humans)") - "womanly" and "manly" are also inside our "feminine" and "masculine". So words have a bit more different meanings with English one, that's true. I've noticed that "feminine" is mostly used about looks and body language, while "manly" is mostly used about actions and character, while our "feminine" and "masculine" used in both cases.

In the process, males who were seen as insufficiently manly and tough were also regarded to be inferior to other men - though not quite as low as females - and were said to be not "real men."

I saw a surge of "heighism" in USA around 5-7 years ago, when "not tall enough man is not a man at all", we don't have here such problem, even very short men are not discriminated (at least not much and not often), but I see such behaviour often on the West.

Like someone said here - "effeminate" men and gay men in some asian societies were becoming "third gender", who were "above women" but "below men" and were "doing house work".

So this problem is universal to patriarchic societies, but implemented in different discriminatory ways - and almost always against gay men plus against "not big/strong/tall enough" men. Gay men are seen like "women in men's bodies" very often as well, and in such societies "woman" being high in hierarchy as man - is offensive and scary to power holding men. That may be a reason, why calling a man "you are like woman" was (and a lot of where still is) considered as a slur by other men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because of the propaganda, that "homosexuality is a preference" and "is a choice" in USSR (and still in most post-USSR countries) there was fear by society, that homosexuality can spread and that West is pushing homosexual agenda towards conservative views of USSR and post-USSR.

But where was this propaganda coming from? I suspect it came from within the former USSR and Soviet bloc countries.

In the West, it's been taken as a given for many decades that sexual orientation is innate, that it's not a "preference" or choice - and therefore it can't be spread. Only with the rise of trans ideology in recent years have some people in the West started claiming that sexual orientation is a choice.

I saw a surge of "heighism" in USA around 5-7 years ago, when "not tall enough man is not a man at all", we don't have here such problem, even very short men are not discriminated (at least not much and not often), but I see such behaviour often on the West.

Can you provide some links showing that this is really true? I've lived in the USA for 66 years and never heard of it. I've never once heard anyone say or suggest that "a man who is not tall enough is not a man at all." I have asked my grown sons and their friends and a lot of other people about this and they say they never heard of it either.

BTW, I am taller than my father was, my mother was taller than my father as well, and I dated a number of guys who were my height or shorter. I grew up with, and have known in my own adult life, many M-F couples where the female was as tall or taller than the male. It was never a big deal.

I have also known several men with extreme lower body amputations that have left them at half their normal height - and in wheelchairs. And they say the discrimination they have encountered is not about their height.

Also, how do explain the success of actor Peter Dinklage and the popularity of US TV shows about "little people"?

[–]MezozoicGay 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But where was this propaganda coming from?

In general, people who don't know about something are often phobic to that something, so people were homophobic on their own, but police, Stalin personally (future general secretars were not claiming such directly, only through media) and KGB (previously NKVD) were promoting the idea about "homosexuality can spread" and "if you love men, they must be women" in masses (similar to some TRA ideas: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/796h/_/rfis). Idea about "if homosexual is not woman and denies transition, than this homosexual is just a pervert and paedo" was promoted later by KGB, when many paedo crimes were recorded as gay crimes - like Chikatilo crimes, so those criminals were doing their crimes uninvestigated. This part you already know, thought, as you watched "Citizen X" movie.

Nowadays in most post-USSR countries it is promoted because they want to be "the opposite of USA", so if USA saying "homosexuality can't be spread", then official TV channels are saying "USA want to promote homosexuality on your sons, we should block their influence/propaganda on us with censorship to save our sons and marriages!", implying that heterosexual men can become homosexual under TV influence. I don't remember it was mentioned directly that it can spread, unlike how it was in USSR. At the same time, progress is still moving on and people are not as homophobic and not listening to TV that much, even under propaganda.

Can you provide some links showing that this is really true?

I don't think I can, as it was just something I've been noticing in younger people discussions, memes about difference between 5'11" and 6'0", and general attitude. It can be a new thing among youth, but I've started noticing it 5-7 years ago, so maybe it is when it was started. I was not interested in this much, just something I was observing passively - maybe it is state specific, or demographics specific (or tied with racism, as on my memory most receivers of it were asian men around age of 16-25). I will try to focus my attention more on this, next time I'll encounter it.