Thailand and it's Transgender views?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And whilst at the end of your OP you noted that "women's rights like secluded prisons away from men, bathrooms, sports, and shelters have remained intact where "Kathoeys" are not allowed to be in these places so there's that..." it didn't seem to occur to you that there might be lesbians in those places too. Nor did you seem to be considering the possibility that in those places (and elsewhere) lesbians as well as other girls and women might be as much - or more - affected by transgenderism and the ideas behind and associated with it as effeminate gay males are.

Oh okay, yeah you're right. And even when I reading the article I read, it didn't focus on lesbians all that much at all and when I got to Iran, it didn't mention if masculine women were given the same choice of either transition or death. That's where I read that Lesbian sex is not punishable by death but the woman will get a lashing (50 or 60 I think). Obviously messed up but it just confused me since again, there was not much focus on Lesbianism when I read about it in Iran and in Thailand and India, it said it was discouraged but not as shameful as homosexual sex and how if a boy is a "Kathoey", it's considered shameful and disgraceful. Again, didn't really explain what it's like for a "Tom" (masculine woman) outside of just using the word, at least the article I was reading anyway.

The sad fact is, in most of the world in the current century, the people who are being most pressured by trans ideology to "go trans" and to change their bodies in irreversible, damaging ways are lesbians, along with girls and young women confused about or just figuring out their sexuality, straight "tomboys" and all/any other female persons who eschew the definitions of what being female means according to porn, the Kardashians, gay male drag queens, Andrea Long Chu and prominent trans-identified male influencers like Laverne Cox, Blair White, Nikki Tutorials, Contrapoints, Jazz Jennings, Munroe Bergdorf.

Yeah I can really see how all this can really warp a woman's mind and if she's not interested in these extremes of femininity, can make her question her own identity. But this is why feminism was good because it showed that women aren't defined by femininity and at least on YouTube now, there have been a few women being outspoken about this kind of stuff. Like GNC Centric's channel, I look at the comments and young lesbians thank her for talking about this stuff. That's why I think that at least online, there are sources for lesbians and women who don't want to subscribe to hyper femininity that stand with them and remind them that that is okay.

Essentially I'm trying to be the male version of GNC Centric, try to reach effeminate men the way she reaches masculine women who think they must be trans. I don't think it's my place to speak up on that kind of stuff as a man if you know what I mean? I'll definitely mention it but I try to leave the other side to women like GNC Centric and Radical Responses because I feel like it might sound better coming from women than a man because the last time I did something like that, I got an earful (well commentful) from a woman who said I didn't have the right to talk about women's issues. So I just try to tread lightly but I will definitely mention the femicide at some point since it's still a problem in places like India.

And no problem ,I do appreciate the wider scope.

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

First, just wanna say I've enjoyed our exchanges. You strike me as a very decent human being. I feel for you and support you.

Now about the substantive issues:

I got an earful (well commentful) from a woman who said I didn't have the right to talk about women's issues.

Yeah, well as a guy, women's issues are outside your bailiwick. However, my own view is that of course guys can talk about women's issues. What guys can't do is present themselves as the most authoritative and deciding voices on women's issues.

But males talking about women's issues wasn't the concern I was raising. My point was that in what you presented as an inquiry into

countries that don't accept homosexuality and how they can force people to transition in order to be seen as acceptable

you immediately narrowed your focus to a discussion of, and concern for, male homosexuals exclusively. It's as though the reality that there are female homosexuals in these countries as well didn't even occur to you.

Essentially I'm trying to be the male version of GNC Centric, try to reach effeminate men the way she reaches masculine women who think they must be trans.

As an older person (now in my mid 60s) who well recalls the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s, I am mystified by your characterization of Ben GNC Centric and the young women who appear on her channel as "masculine women." To me, they look and sound like ordinary, everyday women whose looks and "presentation" have long easily fit into what has been considered the normal range for female people. Like Golda Meir, Sojourner Truth, Indira Gandhi, Janet Reno, Eleanor Roosevelt, Joan Armatrading, Phoebe Snow, Annie Lennox, Grace Jones, Shirley Chisholm, Bella Abzug, Barbara Jordan, Angela Merkel, LP, Scout in "To Kill A Mockingbird," the little girl Ellen in "Fatal Attraction" - and a zillion others, including many of the "1950s suburban housewives" I knew as a child.

I guess I should include myself in that list too, coz I've never been big into makeup or "femininity" and in the 1980s I had a shaved head or spikey buzz cut! Also, in the 90s I and tons of other women of my generation responded to the demands of motherhood by wearing "mom hair" that was an inch or two in length along with T-shirts and unflattering, definitely "unfeminine" boxy-cut "mom jeans."

As for Ben specifically, I find nothing "masculine" about her. She looks and comes across like a ton of other women I've known in my life. She's incredibly bright, insightful, well-spoken and brave, of course, but I don't see those as particularly "masculine" traits.

The hyper focus on "masculinity" and "femininity" that preoccupies you and so many young people today - and sadly, pains all of you too - is a new development.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

About what I said about Ben and women like her, when I say "masculine", I just meant more their sense of fashion/clothing style. Like not caring about wearing dresses or having long hair or wearing makeup or anything like that. I have to reiterate that I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. I say dress how you want to dress/present yourself. So I hope it wasn't coming across like I was thinking or implying that women who don't embrace femininity are less than or something like that because that's not what I think at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Kai, I didn't think you were implying that "women who don't embrace femininity are less than." As I've said before, you strike me as a very decent person, and I get the impression you are deeply interested in exploring issues re sex and "gender." I was just trying to bring to your attention that the focus on "femininity" and "masculinity" that many young people today seem to be in thrall of is new. When I was growing up and in early-middle adulthood, there was lots of talk about sexism, sex discrimination, sexual harassment, sex crimes, sexual politics and so on - but nobody spoke much about the importance of having a "feminine" or "masculine" style or god forbid about "womanhood."

Like not caring about wearing dresses or having long hair or wearing makeup or anything like that

That describes me and a zillion other women who in no way appear or can be described as "masculine." But by your standards we're not "feminine" either. We're a mixed bag, as most humans are.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I can admit that in the last maybe 10-20 years the shift of focus went towards masculinity and femininity but I think it especially became as such because of the whole trans (and then "Non-binary") rhetoric became so mainstream. Like when I was a kid up until maybe my late teen years I never really thought about this stuff much myself until I started getting some negative attention about how I liked presenting myself which was not manly and then the trans thing started rearing it's head it in and I just started thinking about it more because it's the thing that made me think that trans was real only for me to realize that femininity does not define women and masculinity does not define men. But I wager that if this whole trans stuff never became a thing (or at least not engulfed the mainstream), there wouldn't be a lot of us of the younger generation thinking much about it like how it was in your generation. Especially because there was more pressing things that needed attention like the issues you raised.

That describes me and a zillion other women who in no way appear or can be described as "masculine." But by your standards we're not "feminine" either. We're a mixed bag, as most humans are.

Right I do understand this. I've seen pictures and videos of some women from the 1960s-1980s who didn't have super feminine looks and heck, I don't even recall reading things about Annie Lennox or Grace Jones that was trying to make them out like they were weren't women. I guess it's just that in today's social climate with the whole trans/non-binary ideology, it's made us young people think about style even more.