all 20 comments

[–]MezozoicGay 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I do not know how the situation is right now in Thaildand, I hope it is much better from what I know about 90s there.

In one documental movie about Thailand in 90s, there briefly was touched this subject, and it was said that it is hard to men, especially gay men, to find good job, in poor families many parents wanted daughters, so they can be prostitues and have a good income to family, so when they got the boy instead, especially feminine gay boy, they could want them to transition and make face surgery, but leave penises in tact, so they can sell themselves to tourists and bring more money than if they were doing jobs for poor people. However, it was old movie about events 25-35 years ago, so everything could be changed since.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well from what I read, what you mentioned here makes a lot more sense. I read that effeminate gay men especially are relegated to certain jobs like beauty salons, restaurants, and shop workers, denied from higher earning positions or even white collar-type jobs. And it was also noted that a lot of them do live in poverty so taking that into consideration, plus the history of how a less well-off family in Thailand would try to prostitute their daughters to try to escape poverty, of course they would try to push their effeminate son into the same spot and thus make him become a "Kathoey" even if it's considered shameful (Usually by the father).

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Kathoeys" are seen as acceptable in Thai culture despite hings like employment discrimination and the sex work stuff.

I don't think you can separate the tolerance of "ladyboys" in Thai culture - and tolerance is a better word for attitudes towards them rather than acceptance - from "the sex work stuff." Prostitution is officially illegal in Thailand, but it's a huge part of the economy. And it seems to be a common view in Thailand that sex work is what feminine gay boys are made for. They become "ladyboys" in part because there's a lot more demand for males who present "feminine" amongst the johns who pay for sex than there is for male prostitutes who present as "masculine" or more neutral, the way most ordinary gay guys do in the West.

Gay men who present as "normal," everyday men like Pete Buttieg or Larry Kramer of course exist in Thailand, as they do everywhere. But if they tried to work in Thailand's sex industry selling sex to all the international "sex tourists," I suspect they'd find far few takers than the "ladyboys."

Follow the money.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah i think you're right. "Tolerate" is probably a better word. I did read a little more about the "Kathoey" and I read employment options are actually quite limited to them because they do get rejected for certain jobs dominated by men and are often resorted to "Female occupations" like shop workers, restaurants, beauty salons, and entertainers. They often tend to live in poverty.

I was trying to see why a regular effeminate gay man would want to become a "ladyboy" aside from the fact that in Thailand, Gays cannot have access to public welfare, tax benefits, and even adoption (for those gay men who want to start a family). I can see why a gay whether feminine or masculine would want to escape that but after reading how the effeminate gay men also get relegated to certain kinds of jobs and how you mentioned that the international sex industry is a big thing in the country, would it be fair to say that the main reason why these feminine gay men in Thailand "trans" is to make more money with the tourists?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

OP, you prompted me to do some searches and reading about lesbians in India and Thailand. Coz as I imagine - or hope - you might agree, in order to really get an idea of how accepting or tolerant of homosexuality any society, culture or country is, it's essential to look at attitudes toward, and experiences of female homosexuals just as much as male ones. Yet so often lesbians are overlooked and "invisibilized" in coverage of the issue. Which in itself is telling.

In the Western world, a lot of press, scholarly and public attention has been given to "feminine" - or feminized -male homosexuals like the Hijrah of India, the "ladyboys" of Thailand and the Philippines, and the Faʻafafine of Samoa. Pretty much everybody knows about these boys and men. But generally speaking, we in the West hears hardly anything about lesbians in these cultures. Funny that.

Anyways, found this paper about lesbians in Thailand, which might be useful to you. It uses a lot of gender ideology jargon and thinking, but it still has some history I found interesting (it also mentions lots of other sources of note):

https://www.newmandala.org/lesbian-history-in-thailand-value-in-traces/

A google search of "India lesbians" yielded "About 148,000, 000" results. These are the ones on the first page

Indian Lesbians - XVIDEOS.COM

'indian lesbians' Search - XNXX.COM

Indian Lesbians - Pornhub.com

Indian Lesbian Porn Videos | xHamster

indian | Lesbian Porn Tube | Free Lesbian Videos

Indian lesbian porn: 14,700 free sex videos @ pornSOS.com

Free Indian Lesbian Porn Videos (2,467) - Tubesafari.com

Most popular "lesbian" videos from India Porn Film

Indian Lesbians Homemade - XVIDEOS.COM

I looked at the next 8 pages of the "India lesbians" search results and although the vast majority were just more porn videos, I did find a Facebook page for Lesbians in Indian Universities, a Quora discussion of "Are there any lesbians in India?" and a paper about American Indians. As well as the following:

https://listening2lesbians.com/2019/08/05/india-lesbian-couple-thrown-out-of-bar-threatened-with-exposure/

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Nature-of-Violence-Faced-by-Lesbian-Women-in-Fern%C3%A1ndez-N.b/899fecbab1158610abc1e60b54e6bf8a87cb9fbc?p2df

https://onceuponajrny.com/lgbt/travel/travel-guide-lesbian-india/

http://www.newnownext.com/im-a-lesbian-in-india-and-im-suffocating/03/2017/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45598117

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/film-breaks-silence-of-indias-lesbians-1193533.html

https://www.quartierdesspectacles.com/en/activity/3593/purple-skies-voices-of-indian-lesbians-bisexuals-and-transmen

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/04/hindu-muslim-lesbian-couple-praised-for-stunning-pics-that-bought-india-and-pakistan-together-10515232/

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2019-02-25/what-a-bollywood-lesbian-romance-film-says-about-india

https://feminisminindia.com/2015/06/14/feminist-news-wrap-indian-lesbians-corrective-rape-selfie-with-daughter/

https://www.dw.com/en/lesbian-marriage-raises-eyebrows-in-indian-town/av-46996047

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Holy crap the porn pages. Yeah it's obviously stemming from more sexualizing of Lesbian women and I guess it doesn't matter where you are. I had a feeling this was a case though because of how heterosexual men tend to sexualize lesbians (unless they look masculine and then that is just met with general disapproval). I'll look into more of these studies and I think I'll give them a mention to YouTuber GNC Centric because I think her and others like her will find this stuff very interesting what with being lesbians themselves who Detrans and started noticing how society can be towards Lesbians. Back to the main subject though, I think the reason why attention seems to be put on the effeminate men is because in some places it is considered socially accept to violently beat them like in places like Iran. Like when I was reading about homosexuality in Iran, I read that homosexual sex between men is punishable by death but with Lesbians, they don't receive the death penalty but they do get lashings... And just various things like that. I'm still reading though, it's just hard when this trans/"queer" crap gets tossed in.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think the reason why attention seems to be put on the effeminate men is because in some places it is considered socially accept to violently beat them like in places like Iran. Like when I was reading about homosexuality in Iran, I read that homosexual sex between men is punishable by death but with Lesbians, they don't receive the death penalty but they do get lashings...

Not all homosexual sex acts between men are punishable by death in Iran under it's Shariah-compliant criminal code. Only sodomy (penetration of anus or mouth by penis) is. Other male sex acts - hand jobs, naked humping without penetration, frottage (humping with clothes or coverings on) - are punishable by 100 lashes. 100 lashes is the same punishment that women get for engaging in lesbian sex (which the code defines as "homosexuality of women by genitals.") Two men kissing each other in a lustful way is punishable by 60 lashes.

Also, sodomy committed by homosexual males who are minors in Iran is punishable by 74 lashes, not death. Significantly, however, there's no talk in the Iranian code of lesbian sex amongst minors, probably coz the legal age of majority and sexual maturity in Iran is different for males and females: boys are adults and thus able to marry/have sex at 15-plus a few months; for girls the age when they can be married off by their fathers and forced to have PIV sex with their husbands is currently 8-plus a few months.

(Yet girls are still subjected to huge amounts of CSA in Iran, coz Shia clerics long have decreed it's perfectly legal and acceptable for men to rub their penises on the vulvas and between the thighs of a girl of any age, even a tiny infant, so long as the men don't penetrate the child vaginally in a way that will cause permanent injury. But it doesn't seem to have occurred to any clerics that two little girls age 8 or under might engage in genital exploration or touching, which is how the Iran code defines lesbian sex; hence, acts of lesbian sex for minor-age females aren't expressly prohibited - the topic is not mentioned at all.)

Another point to keep in mind about Iran is that to be convicted of prohibited homosexual acts there, the acts must be "proved by the testimony of four righteous men who might have observed it." Which is a pretty high bar, but also a standard wide open for abuse.

If you looked into male violence against girls and women in countries like India, Pakistan and Iran, I think you'll find it's totally socially acceptable amongst vast swathes of those societies for males to violently beat, rape, harass, menace and even murder girls and women just for being female. I'm sorry that in countries like Iran, Pakistan and India it is, as you say, "considered socially accept(able) to violently beat" effeminate (gay) men. However, just by virtue of them being men, they have much, much higher status - and are subjected to far less violence - than girls and women in those countries. Though caste and religion complicates matters in a country like India, just as race does in places like the US and South Africa, generally speaking in most countries the lowest status male will be higher in the pecking order than the majority of females.

What's more, in India and Pakistan the Hijra are often feared as much as they are subjected to violence. A fair number of them commit criminal acts like menacing, harassment, robbery and assault against others - so they're often given a wide berth. Plus, in Pakistan and India they are pretty well organized politically nowadays, and are obtaining rights, protections and positions that females don't necessarily have.

In Iran, India and Pakistan and a number of other countries, it's also common for family members - fathers, brothers, uncles, sometimes with a mother's involvement too - to murder their daughters, sisters, nieces, wives for bringing "dishonor" on the family. Honor killings are always committed against females, never against males. In Iran, honor killings of female family members often go entirely unpunished, or get relatively light sentences.

Iran's Islamic Penal Code says that men who kill other men who aren't members of their families can get death, and they also can get death for killing a girl or woman who is neither their wife nor a blood relative. But Article 220 of Iran's Islamic Penal Code stipulates that fathers and grandfathers cannot be sentenced to death for killing a child or grandchild; the maximum sentence is 10 years.

This past June, there were three particularly grisly honor killings of young female persons in Iran that made international news. In one, a farmer beheaded his 14-year-old daughter with a sickle:

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2020/0623/How-outrage-over-killing-of-Iranian-girl-is-helping-women-s-rights

BTW, the father in that case got a relatively long sentence for an honor killing - nine years - coz the Iranian government, under intense pressure from criticism by human rights groups, wanted to set a harsh example. In the past, he most likely would have gotten three years.

At the same time, women in Iran recently have been given prison sentences of as long as 24 years for removing their hijab in public.

In another Iranian honor killing in June, "an 18-year-old pregnant woman was forced to consume aluminum phosphide by her father and brothers in what human rights activists have deemed a brutal honor killing":

https://www.foxnews.com/world/iran-honor-killings-social-media

In Iran, it is not illegal for males to commit domestic violence against their wives, children, other female relatives or their household servants or workers. Such acts are considered "private family matters" not subject to government stricture.

Honor killings of females by their male relatives are commonplace in India and Pakistan too:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/18/asia/pakistan-honor-killing-hnk-intl/index.html

What's more, in India and Pakistan, female fetuses are being aborted on an industrial scale simply coz they're female. Also common is the practice of killing female children early in life by such means as suffocation, strangulation, starvation, and abandoning them so they can die of exposure to the elements or at the hands someone else:

a large number of the abortions that happen in India are performed because the fetus is female. Last year, an Indian government report found that about 63 million women were statistically “missing” from the country’s population due to a societal preference for male children. And this problem does not just stem from sex-selective abortion. The report noted that another 21 million girls were considered “unwanted” by their families, who continue to have children until a son is born. Roughly 239,000 girls under the age of 5 died in India every year between 2000 and 2005 due to gender-based neglect, according to a 2018 study.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/15/a-generation-of-girls-is-missing-in-india/

https://metro.co.uk/2018/05/01/hundreds-of-dead-baby-girls-have-been-found-in-pakistani-rubbish-dumps-7512995/

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

or girls the age when they can be married off by their fathers and forced to have PIV sex with their husbands is currently 8.

I heard that the age of consent for girls was low but holy fuck I didn't think it was that young. That is pretty fucked. And knew about some of the things you mentioned like the women getting imprisoned for removing the hijab and how they can be killed if they have a miscarriage and it's all pretty messed up. I was mostly just focusing on the topic of transgenderism though since that's what my video was gonna be about and how it plays out in other countries and comparing it to gay men and how it further shows that there's no such thing as a "woman born in a man's body" and that there are other external forces that can make one think they are trans. I was gonna save the sexism for another video but all this is definitely very interesting to learn and it can show that femicide is still a big problem in some areas of the world.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Just to clarify: It's 8 plus some months. The age Aisha was when Muhammed first fucked her.

I'm with you all the way, Kai. I was just trying to give a broader (LOL) perspective on the issue of whether/the extent to which homosexuality is accepted and tolerated in these countries/cultures. Coz in your OP you started out discussing "countries that don't accept homosexuality and how they can force people to transition" - but then your focus immediately narrowed to Hijra, Kathoey, ladyboys, effeminate gay men exclusively...

And whilst at the end of your OP you noted that "women's rights like secluded prisons away from men, bathrooms, sports, and shelters have remained intact where "Kathoeys" are not allowed to be in these places so there's that..." it didn't seem to occur to you that there might be lesbians in those places too. Nor did you seem to be considering the possibility that in those places (and elsewhere) lesbians as well as other girls and women might be as much - or more - affected by transgenderism and the ideas behind and associated with it as effeminate gay males are.

The sad fact is, in most of the world in the current century, the people who are being most pressured by trans ideology to "go trans" and to change their bodies in irreversible, damaging ways are lesbians, along with girls and young women confused about or just figuring out their sexuality, straight "tomboys" and all/any other female persons who eschew the definitions of what being female means according to porn, the Kardashians, gay male drag queens, Andrea Long Chu and prominent trans-identified male influencers like Laverne Cox, Blair White, Nikki Tutorials, Contrapoints, Jazz Jennings, Munroe Bergdorf.

In my latest comment, I was just trying to put the issue of violence against effeminate males in the countries you mentioned in a broader (again, LOL) context. I think the way "girly" gay males are treated in those and many other cultures and legal systems is terrible. But what's done to effeminate male homosexuals in many countries as they grow up and during their adulthood sorta pales next to what's routinely done to female people of all sexual orientations and all ages.

What's more, from the moment fetal sex can be medically/scientifically ascertained - which with today's technology is 8 weeks in utero - female fetuses regardless of their future sexual orientation and "gender presentation" are being aborted en masse simply coz they are female, but male fetuses regardless of their future sexuality and effeminacy are not. Same goes for young children: there is no tradition of killing young boys coz they might turn out to be effeminate and/or gay, but there is a tradition of killing young girls simply coz they are girls.

Best to you. So glad you are asking questions and looking into things. Keep at it. When I respond to your posts, it's only to add to/expand the view, not to talk over what you have to say.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And whilst at the end of your OP you noted that "women's rights like secluded prisons away from men, bathrooms, sports, and shelters have remained intact where "Kathoeys" are not allowed to be in these places so there's that..." it didn't seem to occur to you that there might be lesbians in those places too. Nor did you seem to be considering the possibility that in those places (and elsewhere) lesbians as well as other girls and women might be as much - or more - affected by transgenderism and the ideas behind and associated with it as effeminate gay males are.

Oh okay, yeah you're right. And even when I reading the article I read, it didn't focus on lesbians all that much at all and when I got to Iran, it didn't mention if masculine women were given the same choice of either transition or death. That's where I read that Lesbian sex is not punishable by death but the woman will get a lashing (50 or 60 I think). Obviously messed up but it just confused me since again, there was not much focus on Lesbianism when I read about it in Iran and in Thailand and India, it said it was discouraged but not as shameful as homosexual sex and how if a boy is a "Kathoey", it's considered shameful and disgraceful. Again, didn't really explain what it's like for a "Tom" (masculine woman) outside of just using the word, at least the article I was reading anyway.

The sad fact is, in most of the world in the current century, the people who are being most pressured by trans ideology to "go trans" and to change their bodies in irreversible, damaging ways are lesbians, along with girls and young women confused about or just figuring out their sexuality, straight "tomboys" and all/any other female persons who eschew the definitions of what being female means according to porn, the Kardashians, gay male drag queens, Andrea Long Chu and prominent trans-identified male influencers like Laverne Cox, Blair White, Nikki Tutorials, Contrapoints, Jazz Jennings, Munroe Bergdorf.

Yeah I can really see how all this can really warp a woman's mind and if she's not interested in these extremes of femininity, can make her question her own identity. But this is why feminism was good because it showed that women aren't defined by femininity and at least on YouTube now, there have been a few women being outspoken about this kind of stuff. Like GNC Centric's channel, I look at the comments and young lesbians thank her for talking about this stuff. That's why I think that at least online, there are sources for lesbians and women who don't want to subscribe to hyper femininity that stand with them and remind them that that is okay.

Essentially I'm trying to be the male version of GNC Centric, try to reach effeminate men the way she reaches masculine women who think they must be trans. I don't think it's my place to speak up on that kind of stuff as a man if you know what I mean? I'll definitely mention it but I try to leave the other side to women like GNC Centric and Radical Responses because I feel like it might sound better coming from women than a man because the last time I did something like that, I got an earful (well commentful) from a woman who said I didn't have the right to talk about women's issues. So I just try to tread lightly but I will definitely mention the femicide at some point since it's still a problem in places like India.

And no problem ,I do appreciate the wider scope.

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

First, just wanna say I've enjoyed our exchanges. You strike me as a very decent human being. I feel for you and support you.

Now about the substantive issues:

I got an earful (well commentful) from a woman who said I didn't have the right to talk about women's issues.

Yeah, well as a guy, women's issues are outside your bailiwick. However, my own view is that of course guys can talk about women's issues. What guys can't do is present themselves as the most authoritative and deciding voices on women's issues.

But males talking about women's issues wasn't the concern I was raising. My point was that in what you presented as an inquiry into

countries that don't accept homosexuality and how they can force people to transition in order to be seen as acceptable

you immediately narrowed your focus to a discussion of, and concern for, male homosexuals exclusively. It's as though the reality that there are female homosexuals in these countries as well didn't even occur to you.

Essentially I'm trying to be the male version of GNC Centric, try to reach effeminate men the way she reaches masculine women who think they must be trans.

As an older person (now in my mid 60s) who well recalls the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s, I am mystified by your characterization of Ben GNC Centric and the young women who appear on her channel as "masculine women." To me, they look and sound like ordinary, everyday women whose looks and "presentation" have long easily fit into what has been considered the normal range for female people. Like Golda Meir, Sojourner Truth, Indira Gandhi, Janet Reno, Eleanor Roosevelt, Joan Armatrading, Phoebe Snow, Annie Lennox, Grace Jones, Shirley Chisholm, Bella Abzug, Barbara Jordan, Angela Merkel, LP, Scout in "To Kill A Mockingbird," the little girl Ellen in "Fatal Attraction" - and a zillion others, including many of the "1950s suburban housewives" I knew as a child.

I guess I should include myself in that list too, coz I've never been big into makeup or "femininity" and in the 1980s I had a shaved head or spikey buzz cut! Also, in the 90s I and tons of other women of my generation responded to the demands of motherhood by wearing "mom hair" that was an inch or two in length along with T-shirts and unflattering, definitely "unfeminine" boxy-cut "mom jeans."

As for Ben specifically, I find nothing "masculine" about her. She looks and comes across like a ton of other women I've known in my life. She's incredibly bright, insightful, well-spoken and brave, of course, but I don't see those as particularly "masculine" traits.

The hyper focus on "masculinity" and "femininity" that preoccupies you and so many young people today - and sadly, pains all of you too - is a new development.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

About what I said about Ben and women like her, when I say "masculine", I just meant more their sense of fashion/clothing style. Like not caring about wearing dresses or having long hair or wearing makeup or anything like that. I have to reiterate that I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. I say dress how you want to dress/present yourself. So I hope it wasn't coming across like I was thinking or implying that women who don't embrace femininity are less than or something like that because that's not what I think at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Kai, I didn't think you were implying that "women who don't embrace femininity are less than." As I've said before, you strike me as a very decent person, and I get the impression you are deeply interested in exploring issues re sex and "gender." I was just trying to bring to your attention that the focus on "femininity" and "masculinity" that many young people today seem to be in thrall of is new. When I was growing up and in early-middle adulthood, there was lots of talk about sexism, sex discrimination, sexual harassment, sex crimes, sexual politics and so on - but nobody spoke much about the importance of having a "feminine" or "masculine" style or god forbid about "womanhood."

Like not caring about wearing dresses or having long hair or wearing makeup or anything like that

That describes me and a zillion other women who in no way appear or can be described as "masculine." But by your standards we're not "feminine" either. We're a mixed bag, as most humans are.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I can admit that in the last maybe 10-20 years the shift of focus went towards masculinity and femininity but I think it especially became as such because of the whole trans (and then "Non-binary") rhetoric became so mainstream. Like when I was a kid up until maybe my late teen years I never really thought about this stuff much myself until I started getting some negative attention about how I liked presenting myself which was not manly and then the trans thing started rearing it's head it in and I just started thinking about it more because it's the thing that made me think that trans was real only for me to realize that femininity does not define women and masculinity does not define men. But I wager that if this whole trans stuff never became a thing (or at least not engulfed the mainstream), there wouldn't be a lot of us of the younger generation thinking much about it like how it was in your generation. Especially because there was more pressing things that needed attention like the issues you raised.

That describes me and a zillion other women who in no way appear or can be described as "masculine." But by your standards we're not "feminine" either. We're a mixed bag, as most humans are.

Right I do understand this. I've seen pictures and videos of some women from the 1960s-1980s who didn't have super feminine looks and heck, I don't even recall reading things about Annie Lennox or Grace Jones that was trying to make them out like they were weren't women. I guess it's just that in today's social climate with the whole trans/non-binary ideology, it's made us young people think about style even more.

[–]Skipdip 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Omg hi Kai, I’ve seen you comment on gnc’s videos serious props to you from this lesbian for being a man who defies gender! Also major props to you for introducing me to Magdalen Berns. And sorry I will read this whole thread but I just had to say that

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aw thanks and you're welcome. Magdalen Berns was amazing. Definitely check out more of her videos if you ever get the chance :)