Someone said "let's not just talk about TRA's all the time." Can we finally talk about this? Or are we still too afraid of this, too?

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[–]fuckupaddams 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I'm a feminine feminist and I don't think high heels are oppressive. I also wear makeup. And have done burlesque. That's where choice comes in (because no one's ever pressured me into that stuff (yes really), it's just how I be.) Pushing high heels and femininity in general on woman is oppressive though, of course.

I've been friends with women who wear the hijab. I won't pretend that Islam is a woman-friendly religion because I know it isn't. I don't know if any woman would naturally want to wear one if they weren't told to by their family and religion all their lives. If a woman generally feels more comfortable wearing one, I have no issue with it but I would question why she feels that way. If men have such a hard time with viewing women as sex objects, the response being to cover up the women avoids the root problem. It's like a temporary fix rather than a real solution, then again patriarchy is never concerned with fixing itself.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 24 insightful - 4 fun24 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

That’s amazing, you magically escaped the part of misogynist culture that objectifies women and says heels (which podiatrists universally agree are debilitating) are sexy and completely randomly chose to wear heels and do burlesque

That’s some special magic

Look we have to be willing to look critically at our own practices. You can wear heels and do burlesque but it’s denial and bad faith to pretend you somehow chose to do those things in a cultural vacuum absent of pressure.

Until COVID I wore makeup sometimes. However I was under no illusion that it was a free choice (free of pressure or consequences).

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Like I get your logic but feminine women do exist. I literally would have no consequences for not doing the things I mentioned. My mom isn't a feminine woman and didn't instill it in me, my friends are pretty gender non-conforming and I'm the only "feminine" one, and I don't think I need to forgo wearing a skirt just because of the chance that it might turn a man on. Your version of feminism seems pretty lame. I'm anti porn, critical of sex work, but I'm not anti fashion and femininity. It's literally about choice. Things aren't so black and white, and your version of feminism is gonna push away a lot of feminine women who don't want to be judged for being feminine.

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Seems like you are not "gender critical" at all.

[–]fuckupaddams 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Pretty fucked up that your feminism has no room for strong feminine women. Do I have to hate all things girly to be valid? I've outgrown my not like other girls syndrome, and I know I'd support whatever kind of woman you are, why can't you say the same about me?

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gender criticism inherently rejects the idea of inherent "femininity" and "masculinity" so yeah, I have no room for strong "feminine" women since all femininity is is ritualized submission. That is a basic tenet of gender criticism. You aren't gender critical at all if you believe in pseudo-religious woo like inherent femininity or "strong" femininity i.e. submissiveness.

I just think of myself as having a personality and don't link my personality traits to patriarchal concepts like femininity, you should try it sometime. All women are biologically similar and temperamentally/characteristically unique human beings with their own preferences and traits.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We're honestly talking about the same thing and just using different words. I in no way think any of the things I mentioned are inherently feminine, I don't think there is any way to exist that is inherently feminine. But when I use that word people tend to know what I mean... I mean we're living at a time where every gendered phrase has like three different definitions to it, just give me a bit of a break. I am usually of the opinion that we need new words to describe this thing besides masculine and feminine. Saying I'm a feminine woman because I like to wear dresses and makeup is sort of counterproductive, I see your point there. Unrhetorically though, what else would you call it? I'm not trying to "gotcha," I'm genuinely curious and have been wondering this myself. When I say "the difference between feminine and masculine women" in regards to sexism, people generally know what I mean even though I'm upholding stereotypes by using those words, and that sucks. Flamboyant? Stoic? I genuinely don't know what adjectives to use that convey the same thing, because especially in regards to sexism it's often important to make distinctions, like "masculine women are respected more than feminine women," for instance, but if I don't want to use those words, what should I use? I'm open to ideas.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Late but like I said, femininity is ritualized submission. What we consider 'feminine' traits are literally just submissive, socialized traits. There is no such thing as 'good' femininity unless you think women should be oppressed.