you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]DarthVelma 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

And of course you can't comment on the article to complain about them using a picture of Caster Semenya. Caster is not a woman. Caster is also not trans (the sub headline is about imposing testosterone limits on TIM athletes).

Testosterone boosts Caster's performance because Caster is male.

[–]materialrealityplz 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Are they though? It sounds like Caster has an intersex condition and their sex is not quite determined. Wikipedia says they have XY chromosomes but it seems complicated, idk. Do we know for sure?

[–]Realwoman 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The sex is clear - male. Semenya has (had) testes and went through make puberty. His body was developed in the direction of producing smaller gametes (sperm), so his sex is male. Now, his body also has a problem with some of the male hormones. I think he can't produce dihydrotestosterone, and dihydrotestosterone is responsible for the testes descending and some other sexual development in utero. That's why he had ambiguous genitalia when he was born but he doesn't have ovaries, he has testes. Not normally developed testes, but testes. And also he produces and reacts to testosterone normally. So he's a male with a birth defect

[–]Lyssa 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I would not call the (rare) cases where there is a mismatch between chromosomes, gonads, external appearance of genitalia and hormones "clear". These intersex people are truely "non-binary" and for all I care can generally live as a man or a woman or something in between as they prefer and without making changes to the body they've been born with. I consider the fight of intersex people against mandatory surgery and for an "intersex" option on ID documents very justified. And they have pushed back against being appropriated by TRAs who fight for the exact opposite (medicalizing children to make them gender conforming).

However, Semenya should not be allowed to start in womens' sports because of her obvious advantage.

[–]Realwoman 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sex is pretty clearly defined actually. You can see here:

https://mobile.twitter.com/zaelefty/status/1262405372230459393

Saying that sex is clear doesn't equal support for unnecessary surgeries. Sex is binary. Semenya has a disorder of male sexual development.

[–]Lyssa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am aware that gametes are the deciding factor for biologists. However, if somebody has the chromosomes, external genitalia and socialization of the opposing sex it strikes me as both oversimplistic to say "disordered male, nothing more to it". Your own link includes the following statement: "In humans, this sexual dimorphism is so consistent that 99.98% of births are unambiguously male or female." So biologists do recognise - exceedingly rare - disambiguations within the binary system. That is not the same as to (incorrectly) state that sex is a spectrum.

Are you generally opposed to the definition/labelling of certain rare conditions as "intersex"? And if Semenya would not be winning womens' medals but just be somebody observed female at birth, raised as a girl and suddenly developing male characteristics at puberty (probably a distressing experience) would you call her "him" after you'd heard that internal testicals have been found? Should that not be her/his own right to decide?

[–]Realwoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it's her or his right to decide although it looks like s/he was aware of the her condition from a young age, it's apparently more common where she lives.

I'm not opposed to the intersex label, but from I understand, it's not a scientific or medical term. Each condition is unique. Semenya's condition maker her or him a male for sure. But if we're talking about complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example, I think calling those people women is justified.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The 40+ distinct medical conditions known as disorders/differences of sex development that are misleadingly called "intersex" in everyday parlance are complex, but they have been extensively studied and nowadays they are well-understood in medicine and biology.

People with DSDs are either male or female, they're just males or females with anomalies. No human is in between sexes, a third sex, or unable to be properly classified.

Semenya's condition, an enzyme deficiency known as 5-ARD, occurs in both male and female humans. But it's only a DSD in males because it causes the male genitalia to develop atypically in utero, while it has no effect on female development.

Semenya's DSD is very well understood. It only seems complicated and vague because South African sports authorities and politicians, Semenya, Semenya's legal team, big corporations that back Semenya such as Nike, queer theorists, the trans lobby and and many of Semenya's more clued-in fans have spent 11 years denying and obscuring the facts and trying to muddy the waters because doing so serves their own interests in different ways. The press and the powers-that-be in the internet era - led by male-dominated and TIM-heavy Big Tech, including Wikipedia, which in recent years has turned into Transopedia - have decided that muddying the waters about biological sex is a brilliant way of preserving the status quo of male dominance and libertinism and undermining feminism. After all, if biological sex is seen as super complicated and terribly difficult to determine - and the idea that there is no such thing as the male/female human sex binary cuz we're all on a sex spectrum takes hold - then feminism's analyses of, and challenges to, sexism, sex discrimination, sexual violence, sex stereotypes and all the other injustices having to do with sex, male supremacy and female second-class status that women have been fighting against for generations are all rendered baseless, without justification and nonsensical.

Semenya's particular DSD, 5-ARD, is well-recognized and accepted as a normal variation amongst even the general pubic in parts of the Dominican Republic where the condition occurs frequently due to consanguinity. In the DR, it's known as "penis at 12" syndrome: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

Zach at the Paradox Institute has done great videos on this topic, such as these: https://youtu.be/7ZswkuxhAVA

https://youtu.be/XN2-YEgUMg0

[–]Lyssa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Interesting links! Thanks much!

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Re, this earlier point of yours:

However, if somebody has the chromosomes, external genitalia and socialization of the opposing sex

If you look more closely at the drawings, photos and descriptions given in studies of the genitals of those whose external genitalia might have appeared to be ambiguous or similar to/the same as the opposite sex upon cursory visual examination at the time of birth, I think you'll find that it really isn't the case that people with DSDs are born with the "external genitalia" of the opposite sex.

If it were the case, it would mean there are some DSD females born with penises and testicles, and some DSDs males are born with labia minor, labia minor, vaginas, clits and female urethras located in the vulva as female urethras are. But this is not really what happens.

On closer examination through eyes that more informed about the details of human anatomy, particularly female anatomy, what's often thought to be a penis in a female baby at birth is actually just an enlarged clitoris (known as clitoromegaly); and what might be mistaken for a scrotal sac is fused labia.

Similarly, in XY babies with DSDs that affect the external genitalia what's often mistaken for a vulva at birth is often empty scrotal skin/sacs into which the testes did not descend. And what gets referred to as - and is assumed to be - a "vagina" turns out on closer examination to be a blind, shallow pouch of skin inverted into the pelvis that has none of the properties of a vagina.

In the case of full-grown XY adults with 5-ARD, the papers I've read say the internal pelvic skin pouches that get mistaken for vaginas are usually under an inch in depth, and may just be a dimple. In the case of XY adults with CAIS, the skin pouches called vaginas tend to be longer, in the range of 2.3 inches. But that's still much shorter than the vaginas of XX females, since the "average" adult human vagina is said to be 3.7 to 7 inches in depth.

Aside from the depth, there are many other ways in which the "vaginas" of XY people with DSDs that affect genital development differ from actual vaginas. After all, a vagina is not just an indentation or hole in the groin made out of skin. A vagina is a muscular, highly elastic tube with its own unique, self-lubricating lining of special self-cleaning mucosal tissue that contains zillions of proton pumps and sustains its own unique flora. Functionally, too, a vagina is more than a hole to stick dicks into - though a flaccid hole for fucking is the way it's typically regarded in a male-dominated, penis-privileging porn culture. The vagina evolved to function rather brilliantly and miraculously in its core role as a birth canal with the stretchiness, strength and muscular force capable of propelling new human beings into the world. Since humans develop unusually large brains and heads in utero, the stretchiness and strength of the human vagina in childbirth is nothing short of miraculous, as is the amazing (albeit painful) expansiveness of the human cervix too.

In persons with 5-ARD specifically, the urethra often empties into the shallow skin pouch, which gives the appearance that XY people with 5-ARD "pee from their vaginas." Peeing from the vagina, in turn, is often used as "proof" that males with 5-ARD have female external genitalia. Semenya, in fact, has used this very explanation to bolster Semenya's claims of being female. But, of course, what such claims really show is ignorance of actual female anatomy. The fact is, females do not pee out of our vaginas. Our urethras do NOT empty into our vaginas, they are entirely separate structures to our vaginas - the openings of the two organs are adjacent in their placement in the vulva, but the female urethra and vagina are not connected.

If you look into DSDs and their history, you'll find that in the majority of DSDs babies are not born with with external genitalia that look ambiguous or truly resembles the opposite sex; this happens only in a tiny number of DSD conditions. You'll also find that in the past, and in some places still today, all sorts of anomalies in the appearance of male genitals that have nothing to do with DSDs and do not impair male reproductive functioning and gamete production long have been erroneously classified as "intersex" conditions. This includes having a very small penis known as a micropenis, having undescended testicles, and having a malformed male urethra that empties out the side, underside or top of the penis rather than through the tip (hypospadias and epispadias).

[–]Lyssa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Again, thank you much! That was really informative re several conditions! And I was not aware, that Semenya claimed that women pee out of their vaginas...

[–]vitunrotta 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for this! I have copied this for personal usage in case I'll discuss this topic with anyone. Very coherently written, with good links included. :) Worry not though, I'm not going to tout this as my own writing anywhere - just a little backup for that inevitable bUt whAtAboUt CAsTerRrR argument.

[–]DarthVelma 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As MarkTwainiac noted below, Caster is an XY male with 5-ARD. He has male internal sex organs and male levels of testosterone.

[–]ZeWombat 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I encourage you to read this post from a few days ago. https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/5dwa/caster_semenya_bio_males_in_womens_sport/

MarkTwainiac and others go into great detail on new findings and unbroadcasted findings on Semenya.