QT: why should "transwomen" be allowed into women's spaces at all?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

These spaces shouldn't be segregated to begin with.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Why not? The many reasons for segregating these kinds of spaces by sex has been presented to you numerous times.

Please spell out all the reasons why you believe there should be no sex segregation.

Also, please explain how female people - the whole range of us, including little girls, teenage girls, pregnant women and girls, breastfeeding women, frail elderly women, women and girls with disabilities, observant Jews and Muslims, nuns, female victims of CSA, rape, sexual assault and harassment - benefit from making it impossible for us to have any place outside our homes where we can get away from the male gaze, male sexual advances, male prurience, male sexual harassment, male bullying, male intrusiveness, male threats, male intimidation, male sexual assault and male violence?

Tell me, how exactly does the human race benefit by enacting policies that will make it so difficult and uncomfortable for women to breastfeed and express milk outside the home that large numbers of mothers will inevitably wean their offspring much earlier than is optimal for their health, or they will never breastfeed at all?

How does it help human beings individually, and our species collectively, to make sure that most of the world's population will be deprived of the enormous lifelong physical and mental health benefits of breastfeeding? How does making breastfeeding more difficult, and less likely, benefit the poor of the world in particular?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

First, most women don't want sex-segregated spaces, and I can say that confidently. I know I cited this study a hundred times, but only 40% of women support requiring trans people to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth. That means 60% of women are OK with otherwise. 60% is more than half of women. 51% of cis men support requiring trans people to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth. Also, according to this poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared to 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

Every poll I find about trans issues, they all have one thing in common. Regardless of percentage results or fluctuation, cis women are more likely to support trans rights than cis men. Why? I've seen talks in gender critical spaces about "class analysis" and what's good for women as a class. Considering that, studies show women as a class don't want sex segregated spaces. Well, most women don't want sex segregated spaces. 60% of women is a lot.

I am a cis woman. I am also an Ashkenazi Jew, learning disabled and I have been a teenage girl and a victim of sexual harassment numerous times. I am still against sex segregated spaces. While it's only men harassing me on the street, 99% of men aren't harassing me. Any man who commits sexual harassment or assault should face consequences in the justice system. Actually this applies to everyone, not just men. A few weeks ago a strange man on the street made me uncomfortable. Even if a few men are sexually harassing me, I can't expect all men to be banned from the street that time in the evening, or banned from that particular area. Nor do I want this. My privacy is also not violated by having a man in the women's restroom. Restrooms have stalls, so unless I don't lock the door I have all the privacy I need in the world, regardless of who is washing their bands next to me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Thing is, 40% is a lot of uncomfortable women, even if it’s not the majority. Also, what about girls? Do you have any polls or stats on the feelings of the underage girls who use those spaces too?

The 60% of women who dgaf would still be safe if all females had their own spaces. They’d be fine. 60% is not enough to dismantle safe spaces for 100% of females for >1% of men. 60% shouldn’t have the right to take away from 40% when the issue is safety in their own spaces and maintaining that safety doesn’t harm the 60%.

In all honesty at this point I’m almost petty enough to just agree to unisex everything rather than give specific men special privileges over me. But I recognize what you don’t- that my personal opinion shouldn’t dictate anything meant for all females. I really wish you’d get past your own views and realize that you are one of billions. Billions. Which would mean that millions/billions of women are uncomfortable with males of any type in their spaces. Why should we ignore that because percentage-wise it’s slightly less than half of women? Women who, again, would not lose anything if our spaces were upheld and respected.

Also, the streets are (hopefully) not restrooms so that bit is irrelevant.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Thing is, 40% is a lot of uncomfortable women, even if it’s not the majority.

60% is even more uncomfortable women. I and the rest of us would be uncomfortable if trans women were not allowed in women's restrooms. Policies are decided by majority rule. Politicians are elected by majority rule. That's what a democracy is. Majority rules.

The 60% of women who dgaf would still be safe if all females had their own spaces.

You don't get to decide if they will still be safe. They do.

Also, what about girls? Do you have any polls or stats on the feelings of the underage girls who use those spaces too?

All those women were underage girls at one point.

In all honesty at this point I’m almost petty enough to just agree to unisex everything rather than give specific men special privileges over me.

That's what I want too.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

60% is even more uncomfortable women. I and the rest of us would be uncomfortable if trans women were not allowed in women's restrooms.

But the poll info you linked to earlier - which is where the figures of 40% and 60% come from - did not say that 60% of the world's women are uncomfortable with single-sex spaces.

The poll asked simply if the respondents "support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth." 60% of the American women polled answered no.

You can't take the way that the American women surveyed in that poll responded to that one question to mean that 60% of the world's women feel uncomfortable using female-only spaces. And you certainly can't take it to mean that 60% of women were saying they will remain uncomfortable using restrooms outside the home until males are allowed in.

None of us knows why the women who answered that poll answered that question as they did; what they thought the term "transgender" meant when they were asked; and what - if any - wider, generalized positions about single-sex spaces overall that they were saying they are for or against by their one yes or no answer to a single question.

Very likely, a large number of the women polled responded to that one question as they did to "be kind" and show how tolerant and generous they are. Most likely, they thought a transgender woman means a man who has had genital surgeries and looks "feminine." They most likely imagined someone like Jazz Jennings or Kim Petras, not someone like Lia Thomas, Danielle Muscato, convicted rapist Karen White, the scary Game Stop "it's ma'am" bully, or the registered sex offender who waved "her" willy around in the ladies section of Wi Spa in LA.

Policies are decided by majority rule. Politicians are elected by majority rule. That's what a democracy is. Majority rules.

WTF? These are untrue statements that reflect gobsmacking ignorance.

Yes, it's true that politicians are elected by the number of votes they get. But that does not mean that "politicians are elected by majority rule." In many democracies, the politicians in power were and customarily are elected by plurality, but not by majority. In multiparty countries like Germany, coalition governments are much more the norm than rule by one party or politician who was elected by a majority.

But regardless by what margins politicians get into power, "majority rule" is not "what a democracy is." It's the opposite of what a democracy is, in fact. Ironclad provisions providing rights and protections for minorities are essential elements of all democracies. All democracies go to great lengths to make sure that minorities have input in political processes and a say in policy-making even when the current government in place was elected by a majority vote.

Nazi Germany is an example of majority rule and minority oppression under such rule. FYI, Nazi Germany is not known as a model of democracy. It was the antithesis.

Please, Genderbender, get away from the gender ideology propaganda, and learn some basic civics and history. If you're going to opine on these matters, you really need to become acquainted with the different kinds of governments there are, the philosophy behind democracies and republics, the ways democracies and republics function, and the enormous efforts and checks and balances put into place by democratic systems in various countries and states to guarantee that minorities have just as much say as the majority, and to insure that the population and party in the majority do not get to deprive minorities of their rights or input. What you seem to think is democracy actually is a cruel kind of authoritarianism. And the kind of government you continually promote is called oligarchy - and a theocracy too.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Those women wouldn’t be uncomfortable or unsafe because men can’t enter our spaces. They are just open to sharing spaces. Those are two very different mindsets. You don’t have any evidence that proves that the 60% would actively be uncomfortable with TW not sharing spaces. Until you do- you can’t really claim that.

Eta: 60% being open to sharing does not equal 60% of women actually being tras/believing TWAW. They could, and likely do, just believe that TW are at risk and are open to protecting them by sharing spaces, or they just don’t mind sharing spaces regardless. Again- two different mindsets. 60% of women haven’t fully drank the kool aid, they just took a sip. Im not deciding if they’d be safe- if your argument is that it’s safe to have males in our spaces, it would obviously still be safe to not have males in our spaces. I’m not sure why you’re pretending that I’m deciding they’d be safe- they literally would be. According to you, they’d be just as safe either way.

And yes thank you, I’m well aware that girls grow up to become women, I’m asking if you have any data on the girls who exist who have not yet grown into women. Obviously you don’t or if you do it doesn’t say what you want it to say, which is why you deflected.

And if “thats what you want too” you just admitted that specific males are being given privileges over females. No point for me to make there, it’s just funny that you did that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Those women wouldn’t be uncomfortable or unsafe because men can’t enter our spaces.

How do you know they wouldn’t be uncomfortable? Have you asked them? I would be uncomfortable.

60% being open to sharing does not equal 60% of women actually being tras/believing TWAW. They could, and likely do, just believe that TW are at risk and are open to protecting them by sharing spaces, or they just don’t mind sharing spaces regardless. Again- two different mindsets. 60% of women haven’t fully drank the kool aid, they just took a sip.

Women are still more likely to be TRAs than men. Even in sports, more cis women than cis men feel that trans women should be allowed to compete in women’s sports.

Everyday Feminism is an online social justice and trans-supportive news magazine, which was founded by an East Asian woman named Sandra Kim. r/GenderCynical, a sub meant to document and refute illogical GC arguments, was founded by a cis woman. woman. She is the president of the site and even wrote an article titled What Cis Folk Have In Common With Trans Folk. BabyCenter is a pregnancy and birth forum. The users there totally support transgender people, and will quickly call you the T-acronym and shut you down if you express gender critical views. Visit the Debate Team and Bargain Hunters boards for proof.

My dad is a cis man. Last year my sister and I overheard him misgender pediatrician Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. We corrected our father and insisted he use "she". He is a cis man and we are both cis women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even in sports, more cis women than cis men feel that trans women should be allowed to compete in women’s sports.

But many of the "cis women" who feel that way have never played sports themselves and do not even follow sports. Many are very young with extremely limited life experience and little knowledge of areas like biology, sports performance and the history of sports and sports policy like you. Others are sex denialists intent on pretending there are no differences, or no appreciable differences, in the anatomy and physiology of human males and females that have any bearing on sports performance. Still others are dick panderers or women with such low self-esteem that they believe that when push comes to shove, girls and women should be forced to forfeit fairness and safety in women's sports in order to kowtow to the demands, cater to the feelings and protect the fragile, deluded self-images of cocky, intrusive males like Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, Ragehell McKinnon, Fallon Fox, Andraya Yearwood, Terry Miller, Stephanie Barrett, June Eastwood and all the rest.

Women who actually do competitive sports, or participated in sports in the past, tend to be overwhelmingly against the inclusion of males in women's sports.

More than 90 per cent of the women’s professional cycling peloton are opposed to racing against transgender women, according to a survey by a leading riders’ union. The Cyclistes Professionnels Associes represents men’s and women’s riders and had canvassed the views of its female members earlier this year before making representations to the sport’s governing body, the UCI, which now intends to review its rules on [male] trans competitors.

“The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 per cent did not agree with [male] trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton,” said Marion Clignet, the triple world champion who is part of a group which wrote to the UCI last week calling for its guidance to be rescinded.

https://sports.yahoo.com/over-90-per-cent-elite-201658557.html

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

So every single time in your life you entered a female space and there was no male you actively felt discomfort? Why?

I don’t mean you feel upset for trans people, I mean actual discomfort or a sense of being unsafe. Not just upset you didn’t get your way.

More likely doesn’t mean a high amount. It just means more women than men. And trans people know that. They count on it. My point still stands.

GC argument is that tw are men. Until you disprove that nothing you come at me with will matter. They are men. They belong in male spaces. End of.

🎉OMG YOURE SO WOKE YOU HAD THE GUTS TO “CORRECT” YOUR OWN DADDY! PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK (because no one else gives a fuck, probably including your dad)🎉

Your dad was right, Rachel is an obvious man.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

So every single time in your life you entered a female space and there was no male you actively felt discomfort? Why?

I would feel discomfort if I saw someone asking someone else to leave a public place when the other person isn't harassing or bothering anyone. In fact, I would ask that person to leave, because nothing is stopping me and if they can harass a person why can't I?

🎉OMG YOURE SO WOKE YOU HAD THE GUTS TO “CORRECT” YOUR OWN DADDY! PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK (because no one else gives a fuck, probably including your dad)

Yes and I will correct anyone, male or female. GCs claim the trans rights movement is a men's rights movement. If that's the case, why are women the ones supporting it and men aren't?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If males aren’t allowed in female spaces then there should be no males for a woman to have to ask to leave a female space so…

You wouldn’t have any basis for asking a female to leave a female space just because she spoke up for her rights.

Also- if a woman is bothered by a male in a space he doesn’t belong he is in fact bothering her just by being there.

That’s the thing- if women were protected and respected, that man would be in the wrong no matter what just for entering the space to begin with, and any woman would have every right to speak up.

Once again, that’s not the point. I very clearly asked “if you entered a female space and there were no males would you feel unsafe or any discomfort?” Why then, did you ignore that question and make up a scenario that has nothing to do with my question? Is it because you have no answer to my actual question that doesn’t prove my point? Deflection deflection deflection. All the time with you.

You didn’t correct anyone. You just forced your view point into yet another person. A view point you can’t back up. Can you prove to anyone, including your father, that are in fact women?

And according to you, I mean you LOVE pointing this out so idk how you forgot so quickly, SOME women are supporting it (as well as some men, just less men than women). Some doesn’t mean all. Or most (another thing I’ve reminded you of many times). It just means some. So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that last question?