QT: why should "transwomen" be allowed into women's spaces at all?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

First, most women don't want sex-segregated spaces, and I can say that confidently. I know I cited this study a hundred times, but only 40% of women support requiring trans people to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth. That means 60% of women are OK with otherwise. 60% is more than half of women. 51% of cis men support requiring trans people to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth. Also, according to this poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared to 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

Every poll I find about trans issues, they all have one thing in common. Regardless of percentage results or fluctuation, cis women are more likely to support trans rights than cis men. Why? I've seen talks in gender critical spaces about "class analysis" and what's good for women as a class. Considering that, studies show women as a class don't want sex segregated spaces. Well, most women don't want sex segregated spaces. 60% of women is a lot.

I am a cis woman. I am also an Ashkenazi Jew, learning disabled and I have been a teenage girl and a victim of sexual harassment numerous times. I am still against sex segregated spaces. While it's only men harassing me on the street, 99% of men aren't harassing me. Any man who commits sexual harassment or assault should face consequences in the justice system. Actually this applies to everyone, not just men. A few weeks ago a strange man on the street made me uncomfortable. Even if a few men are sexually harassing me, I can't expect all men to be banned from the street that time in the evening, or banned from that particular area. Nor do I want this. My privacy is also not violated by having a man in the women's restroom. Restrooms have stalls, so unless I don't lock the door I have all the privacy I need in the world, regardless of who is washing their bands next to me.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You still have not explained why you believe what you believe, or how it benefits women, children and society as a whole.

You've simply repeated that you believe what you believe and claimed that the majority of "cis" people agree with you. But still you've not spelled out any of the reasons why you believe that ending all sex segregation is a good thing.

Please take some time to share who will benefit from the policies you promote, and explain exactly how. And tell us who will be disadvantaged and harmed by what you advocate, and in what ways.

You also have narrowed down the convo only to restrooms. OP asked about all spaces that are currently sex-segregated. Which include communal restrooms but go much beyond and also include shelters, hospital wards/rooms, locker and changing rooms, fitting rooms, nursing home rooms, exercise classes and facilities, domestic violence and IPV refuges, rape crisis centers, prisons and jails, women & children's sections of refugee camps, breastfeeding lounges, workplace lactation rooms, health clinics...

Instead of discussing any of these areas, you simply say

Restrooms have stalls, so unless I don't lock the door I have all the privacy I need in the world, regardless of who is washing their bands next to me.

As if all we were talking about here is washing hands.

Tellingly, you have also - once again - narrowed the convo down to your personal experience as if you are the only person on the planet who counts. You say

I have all the privacy I need in the world

As if no one else on earth matters. You either are unaware that others have different needs to yours, or you just don't give a crap because the only person visible in your world view is yourself.

You are advocating sweeping changes to public policies, laws and social conventions and customs that affect the entire human population of planet earth. But all you can talk about is your own individual self.

I asked about the impact of what you promote on breastfeeding practices around the world, how our whole species will be affected, and how especially this will impact the world's poorest people. In response you say

I am a cis woman. I am also an Ashkenazi Jew, learning disabled and I have been a teenage girl and a victim of sexual harassment numerous times... A few weeks ago a strange man on the street made me uncomfortable. Even if a few men are sexually harassing me, I can't expect all men to be banned from the street that time in the evening, or banned from that particular area. Nor do I want this. My privacy is also not violated by having a man in the women's restroom.

As though this is all about you, and only you. Your experience, your privacy, your needs, your own narrow life experience. Listen to yourself. It's an endless litany of me, me, me...

It sounds like you are very young, able-bodied, relatively privileged, from a "first world" nation, and you've never been pregnant, borne children, breastfed, have had children in your care when out and about, experienced serious illness, been the carer of someone seriously infirm, and thankfully you have no history of ever being sexually molested, raped, beaten, stalked, trafficked, pimped, coercively controlled by a man... But just because that is your own personal situation doesn't mean it's everyone else's. Many girls and women on earth are not in your same shoes. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why do you have such utter disregard for other people, girls and women especially? Why do you view those who need spaces that will provide more privacy, safety and dignity than you personally need at this time in your life with total contempt and disdain?

Also, why on earth are you talking about the prospect of banning men from the streets and certain neighborhoods? That's something no one has proposed. It has jack shit to do with the issues of whether men and older boys should be allowed in to women's locker and changing rooms so they can watch girls and women get undressed, plant spy cams, and/or wave their willies in girls' and women's faces.

It has nothing to do with the issue of whether HCFs should be able to have separate maternity wards where the only patients are women in labor, giving birth or who have recently given birth. Pray tell, how does it benefit women in labor or who have just given birth to have to share their rooms in hospital with random blokes, some of whom will have sick sexual fetishes about pregnancy, maternity and breastfeeding and some of whom will have histories of sex crimes against women and children?

How does an elderly disabled woman confined to bed in a nursing home for the last years of her life benefit from being forced to room with a man who will be there cheek to jowl looking on as she gets undressed, is bathed, has her cath changed and her bottom wiped? What if the man has autogynephilia or another male paraphilia that causes him to get sexually aroused at seeing women suffer pain and indignities and has a habit of jerking off at her? How exactly is the life and mental and physical welling of such a woman improved by what you want to impose on her?

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The polls you cite are invalid, because the people being polled are being lied to by omission. In order for any poll about trans issues to be valid, the people being polled must be informed that approximately 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually, and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women. If the polls were honest about these facts, I can guarantee that the outcomes would be very different.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

approximately 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually, and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women

I agree that the polls cited are tosh for the reasons you say. But the number who choose to keep their penises and testicles nowadays is more like 95%. And more than a large majority of adult male humans who adopt a trans identity are attracted to women; the overwhelming majority of them are attracted to women.

Many males who identify as trans women today don't just keep their penises and balls, they write texts and give talks in which they proudly boast about their penises and the enormous powers and wondrous, magical properties they believe their penises have. Examples of this genre include Julia Serano's classic "Cocky" from some years ago, and Grace Lavery's newly-published memoir, "Please Miss: A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Penis."

Re the fact that nearly all adult males who identify as trans today keep their penises and balls: One of the reasons there is such a push to be able to do genital surgeries on male minors before they have reached the age of consent and cognitive maturity is the fact that most full-grown adult males who identify as trans avoid such surgeries like the plague, and understandably so since most adult males enjoy the ability to orgasm and find it vital to their lives. So just as the "gender affirming" medical "care" industry is promoting double mastectomies as a panacea to a target audience that consists entirely of tween and teenage girls and doesn't bother trying to peddle these surgeries as mental health boosters to older women, the gender medicine industry has zeroed in on underage boys who were transed by their parents in childhood like Jazz Jennings, Jackie Green, Trinity Neal and Kim Petras as the main market for "male to female bottom surgeries." Gotta get 'em young, because once they've grown up, these male youths might say no.

https://youtu.be/L240CPOJ6FM

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps yes, the results may be very different. However, I notice all polls about trans issues have one thing in common. Some polls show an increase in support for trans rights. Others show a decrease in support for trans rights. But the one thing they all have in common is that women are significantly more likely to support trans rights than men. This is true for every poll I have seen that surveys both women and men. In fact, cis women are the biggest allies to trans people. I'd bet all my life savings that if there was a poll that informed participants beforehand that 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women, women would still be more supportive of trans rights than men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, when questioned about whether we support "rights" for minority groups, women are more likely than men to say yes. That is to women's credit. Even women like me who get painted as evil "terven" and bigots very much support the right of adults to dress, groom, present and "identify as" they like. We don't think that people who identify as the opposite sex, or of neither sex, should be unfairly discriminated against or mistreated.

But when you spell out the specifics of what the vague, intentionally anodyne term "trans rights" actually means, then women tend to see the conflicts and are less supportive of many of the unreasonable and male supremacist demands that are hiding under the cover of "trans rights."

Do you support trans rights? is a very different question to the questions that really need to be asked, such as

Do you think males should be able to compete in female sports?

When men and teenage boys say they "identify as" or "feel like" women/girls, should they be able to use women's single-sex locker rooms, changing rooms, showers, shelters, communal toilets, rape refuges, hospital wards and other spaces where girls and women are partly or fully naked and at their most vulnerable?

When a big strapping adult male like U Penn swimmer Lia Thomas or convicted sex offender Darren Merager goes into a women's changing area, spa, locker room or fitting room and exposes his dick and balls to the girls and women who are there, is it bigoted and hateful for the girls and women to feel discomfort or distress? Are the girls and women rude for taking notice and feeling alarmed? If someone is asked to leave the women's facilities and use another space, who should it be - the males, or the females?

Should violent males who've been convicted of murder, assault and battery, rape of women, child molestation, voyeurism, indecent exposure and serial murders of women and girls be incarcerated in women's prisons if they say they now "identify as" women themselves?

Is it fair to a female prison inmate to lock her in a cell with a male inmate who is not only much bigger and stronger than she is, but who has a history of assaulting and sexually abusing others and who in men's prison strangled his male cellmate to death with his bare hands? When such a male inmate rapes women he has been locked up with, and the women lodge complaints and file lawsuits, should the women be condemned for evincing "transphobia" and punished for their "bigotry"? (These details come from a case that's already happened in Illinois, USA.)

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Thing is, 40% is a lot of uncomfortable women, even if it’s not the majority. Also, what about girls? Do you have any polls or stats on the feelings of the underage girls who use those spaces too?

The 60% of women who dgaf would still be safe if all females had their own spaces. They’d be fine. 60% is not enough to dismantle safe spaces for 100% of females for >1% of men. 60% shouldn’t have the right to take away from 40% when the issue is safety in their own spaces and maintaining that safety doesn’t harm the 60%.

In all honesty at this point I’m almost petty enough to just agree to unisex everything rather than give specific men special privileges over me. But I recognize what you don’t- that my personal opinion shouldn’t dictate anything meant for all females. I really wish you’d get past your own views and realize that you are one of billions. Billions. Which would mean that millions/billions of women are uncomfortable with males of any type in their spaces. Why should we ignore that because percentage-wise it’s slightly less than half of women? Women who, again, would not lose anything if our spaces were upheld and respected.

Also, the streets are (hopefully) not restrooms so that bit is irrelevant.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Thing is, 40% is a lot of uncomfortable women, even if it’s not the majority.

60% is even more uncomfortable women. I and the rest of us would be uncomfortable if trans women were not allowed in women's restrooms. Policies are decided by majority rule. Politicians are elected by majority rule. That's what a democracy is. Majority rules.

The 60% of women who dgaf would still be safe if all females had their own spaces.

You don't get to decide if they will still be safe. They do.

Also, what about girls? Do you have any polls or stats on the feelings of the underage girls who use those spaces too?

All those women were underage girls at one point.

In all honesty at this point I’m almost petty enough to just agree to unisex everything rather than give specific men special privileges over me.

That's what I want too.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

60% is even more uncomfortable women. I and the rest of us would be uncomfortable if trans women were not allowed in women's restrooms.

But the poll info you linked to earlier - which is where the figures of 40% and 60% come from - did not say that 60% of the world's women are uncomfortable with single-sex spaces.

The poll asked simply if the respondents "support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth." 60% of the American women polled answered no.

You can't take the way that the American women surveyed in that poll responded to that one question to mean that 60% of the world's women feel uncomfortable using female-only spaces. And you certainly can't take it to mean that 60% of women were saying they will remain uncomfortable using restrooms outside the home until males are allowed in.

None of us knows why the women who answered that poll answered that question as they did; what they thought the term "transgender" meant when they were asked; and what - if any - wider, generalized positions about single-sex spaces overall that they were saying they are for or against by their one yes or no answer to a single question.

Very likely, a large number of the women polled responded to that one question as they did to "be kind" and show how tolerant and generous they are. Most likely, they thought a transgender woman means a man who has had genital surgeries and looks "feminine." They most likely imagined someone like Jazz Jennings or Kim Petras, not someone like Lia Thomas, Danielle Muscato, convicted rapist Karen White, the scary Game Stop "it's ma'am" bully, or the registered sex offender who waved "her" willy around in the ladies section of Wi Spa in LA.

Policies are decided by majority rule. Politicians are elected by majority rule. That's what a democracy is. Majority rules.

WTF? These are untrue statements that reflect gobsmacking ignorance.

Yes, it's true that politicians are elected by the number of votes they get. But that does not mean that "politicians are elected by majority rule." In many democracies, the politicians in power were and customarily are elected by plurality, but not by majority. In multiparty countries like Germany, coalition governments are much more the norm than rule by one party or politician who was elected by a majority.

But regardless by what margins politicians get into power, "majority rule" is not "what a democracy is." It's the opposite of what a democracy is, in fact. Ironclad provisions providing rights and protections for minorities are essential elements of all democracies. All democracies go to great lengths to make sure that minorities have input in political processes and a say in policy-making even when the current government in place was elected by a majority vote.

Nazi Germany is an example of majority rule and minority oppression under such rule. FYI, Nazi Germany is not known as a model of democracy. It was the antithesis.

Please, Genderbender, get away from the gender ideology propaganda, and learn some basic civics and history. If you're going to opine on these matters, you really need to become acquainted with the different kinds of governments there are, the philosophy behind democracies and republics, the ways democracies and republics function, and the enormous efforts and checks and balances put into place by democratic systems in various countries and states to guarantee that minorities have just as much say as the majority, and to insure that the population and party in the majority do not get to deprive minorities of their rights or input. What you seem to think is democracy actually is a cruel kind of authoritarianism. And the kind of government you continually promote is called oligarchy - and a theocracy too.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Those women wouldn’t be uncomfortable or unsafe because men can’t enter our spaces. They are just open to sharing spaces. Those are two very different mindsets. You don’t have any evidence that proves that the 60% would actively be uncomfortable with TW not sharing spaces. Until you do- you can’t really claim that.

Eta: 60% being open to sharing does not equal 60% of women actually being tras/believing TWAW. They could, and likely do, just believe that TW are at risk and are open to protecting them by sharing spaces, or they just don’t mind sharing spaces regardless. Again- two different mindsets. 60% of women haven’t fully drank the kool aid, they just took a sip. Im not deciding if they’d be safe- if your argument is that it’s safe to have males in our spaces, it would obviously still be safe to not have males in our spaces. I’m not sure why you’re pretending that I’m deciding they’d be safe- they literally would be. According to you, they’d be just as safe either way.

And yes thank you, I’m well aware that girls grow up to become women, I’m asking if you have any data on the girls who exist who have not yet grown into women. Obviously you don’t or if you do it doesn’t say what you want it to say, which is why you deflected.

And if “thats what you want too” you just admitted that specific males are being given privileges over females. No point for me to make there, it’s just funny that you did that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Those women wouldn’t be uncomfortable or unsafe because men can’t enter our spaces.

How do you know they wouldn’t be uncomfortable? Have you asked them? I would be uncomfortable.

60% being open to sharing does not equal 60% of women actually being tras/believing TWAW. They could, and likely do, just believe that TW are at risk and are open to protecting them by sharing spaces, or they just don’t mind sharing spaces regardless. Again- two different mindsets. 60% of women haven’t fully drank the kool aid, they just took a sip.

Women are still more likely to be TRAs than men. Even in sports, more cis women than cis men feel that trans women should be allowed to compete in women’s sports.

Everyday Feminism is an online social justice and trans-supportive news magazine, which was founded by an East Asian woman named Sandra Kim. r/GenderCynical, a sub meant to document and refute illogical GC arguments, was founded by a cis woman. woman. She is the president of the site and even wrote an article titled What Cis Folk Have In Common With Trans Folk. BabyCenter is a pregnancy and birth forum. The users there totally support transgender people, and will quickly call you the T-acronym and shut you down if you express gender critical views. Visit the Debate Team and Bargain Hunters boards for proof.

My dad is a cis man. Last year my sister and I overheard him misgender pediatrician Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. We corrected our father and insisted he use "she". He is a cis man and we are both cis women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even in sports, more cis women than cis men feel that trans women should be allowed to compete in women’s sports.

But many of the "cis women" who feel that way have never played sports themselves and do not even follow sports. Many are very young with extremely limited life experience and little knowledge of areas like biology, sports performance and the history of sports and sports policy like you. Others are sex denialists intent on pretending there are no differences, or no appreciable differences, in the anatomy and physiology of human males and females that have any bearing on sports performance. Still others are dick panderers or women with such low self-esteem that they believe that when push comes to shove, girls and women should be forced to forfeit fairness and safety in women's sports in order to kowtow to the demands, cater to the feelings and protect the fragile, deluded self-images of cocky, intrusive males like Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, Ragehell McKinnon, Fallon Fox, Andraya Yearwood, Terry Miller, Stephanie Barrett, June Eastwood and all the rest.

Women who actually do competitive sports, or participated in sports in the past, tend to be overwhelmingly against the inclusion of males in women's sports.

More than 90 per cent of the women’s professional cycling peloton are opposed to racing against transgender women, according to a survey by a leading riders’ union. The Cyclistes Professionnels Associes represents men’s and women’s riders and had canvassed the views of its female members earlier this year before making representations to the sport’s governing body, the UCI, which now intends to review its rules on [male] trans competitors.

“The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 per cent did not agree with [male] trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton,” said Marion Clignet, the triple world champion who is part of a group which wrote to the UCI last week calling for its guidance to be rescinded.

https://sports.yahoo.com/over-90-per-cent-elite-201658557.html

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

So every single time in your life you entered a female space and there was no male you actively felt discomfort? Why?

I don’t mean you feel upset for trans people, I mean actual discomfort or a sense of being unsafe. Not just upset you didn’t get your way.

More likely doesn’t mean a high amount. It just means more women than men. And trans people know that. They count on it. My point still stands.

GC argument is that tw are men. Until you disprove that nothing you come at me with will matter. They are men. They belong in male spaces. End of.

🎉OMG YOURE SO WOKE YOU HAD THE GUTS TO “CORRECT” YOUR OWN DADDY! PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK (because no one else gives a fuck, probably including your dad)🎉

Your dad was right, Rachel is an obvious man.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

So every single time in your life you entered a female space and there was no male you actively felt discomfort? Why?

I would feel discomfort if I saw someone asking someone else to leave a public place when the other person isn't harassing or bothering anyone. In fact, I would ask that person to leave, because nothing is stopping me and if they can harass a person why can't I?

🎉OMG YOURE SO WOKE YOU HAD THE GUTS TO “CORRECT” YOUR OWN DADDY! PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK (because no one else gives a fuck, probably including your dad)

Yes and I will correct anyone, male or female. GCs claim the trans rights movement is a men's rights movement. If that's the case, why are women the ones supporting it and men aren't?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If males aren’t allowed in female spaces then there should be no males for a woman to have to ask to leave a female space so…

You wouldn’t have any basis for asking a female to leave a female space just because she spoke up for her rights.

Also- if a woman is bothered by a male in a space he doesn’t belong he is in fact bothering her just by being there.

That’s the thing- if women were protected and respected, that man would be in the wrong no matter what just for entering the space to begin with, and any woman would have every right to speak up.

Once again, that’s not the point. I very clearly asked “if you entered a female space and there were no males would you feel unsafe or any discomfort?” Why then, did you ignore that question and make up a scenario that has nothing to do with my question? Is it because you have no answer to my actual question that doesn’t prove my point? Deflection deflection deflection. All the time with you.

You didn’t correct anyone. You just forced your view point into yet another person. A view point you can’t back up. Can you prove to anyone, including your father, that are in fact women?

And according to you, I mean you LOVE pointing this out so idk how you forgot so quickly, SOME women are supporting it (as well as some men, just less men than women). Some doesn’t mean all. Or most (another thing I’ve reminded you of many times). It just means some. So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that last question?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If males aren’t allowed in female spaces then there should be no males for a woman to have to ask to leave a female space so…

I disagree with the idea of male and female spaces so…

You wouldn’t have any basis for asking a female to leave a female space just because she spoke up for her rights.

Where are sex segregated spaces a right? Is it written in the constitution? In the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights? In the Geneva conventions? Nope.

In fact, in my state which is New York it's illegal to deny "the use of rest rooms, locker rooms, or other facilities consistent with a person's gender identity." There are even signs posted in front of bathrooms that people have the right to use the restroom that matches their gender identity and anyone who harasses a person on this basis will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I support this and I don't vote for politicians that don't support transgender rights.

https://dhr.ny.gov/genda

Also- if a woman is bothered by a male in a space he doesn’t belong he is in fact bothering her just by being there.

That's not the definition of bothering. Bothering is to annoy someone with petty provocation. If someone is not talking to you and not getting in your way, they are not bothering you. If you are bothered by someone's mere presence, that's your problem and not theirs.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Where are sex segregated spaces a right? Is it written in the constitution? In the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights? In the Geneva conventions? Nope.

Which country's constitution are you referring to? If it's the US constitution, then I suggest you do some reading about it and about the vast body of US federal and state civil rights law that has issued from the US constitution, as well as the history of the constitution and the philosophy of inalienable rights behind it. Also, I suggest you learn about others areas of US law like health ordinances and building codes. Collectively, the body of laws and regulations in the USA prohibit unfair treatment of women and girls based on our sex, and also allow for sex-based accommodations and services.

It's because of the protections women have won under the US constitution, federal and state civil rights laws and state and local public health and building codes that it's no longer legal for employers to fire women for becoming pregnant as used to be the case, and that public places in the US are required to provide urinals in communal toilets meant for the male sex, and stalls with sit-down toilets equipped with special bins for disposal of used female hygiene and menstrual products in toilets meant for the female sex.

As for the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights - why mention only those, but none of the UN's conventions, declarations, programs and policy recommendations regarding the rights of girls and women?

https://www.unwomen.org/en/about-us/guiding-documents

https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/378/07/IMG/NR037807.pdf?OpenElement

http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/instree/women/engl-wmn.html

About the Geneva conventions, obviously you've never read them. Why am I not surprised?

Practice Relating to Rule 119. Accommodation for Women Deprived of Their Liberty

I. Treaties

Geneva Convention III, 1949:

Article 25, fourth paragraph, and Article 29, second paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention III provide that in any camps in which men and women prisoners are accommodated together, separate dormitories and conveniences shall be provided for women.

Geneva Convention IV, also 1949:

Article 76, fourth paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides that women accused of an offence “shall be confined in separate quarters and shall be under the direct supervision of women”.

Article 85, fourth paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: "Whenever it is necessary, as an exceptional and temporary measure, to accommodate women internees who are not members of a family unit in the same place of internment as men, the provision of separate sleeping quarters and sanitary conveniences for the use of such women internees shall be obligatory."

Article 97, fourth paragraph, and Article 108, second paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention III provide that women prisoners of war undergoing disciplinary punishment or convicted of an offence shall be confined in separate quarters from men Geneva Convention IV

Article 124, third paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: “Women internees undergoing disciplinary punishment shall be confined in separate quarters from male internees and shall be under the immediate supervision of women.”

Additional Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions, 1977

Article 75(5) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides: Women whose liberty has been restricted for reasons related to the armed conflict shall be held in quarters separated from men’s quarters. They shall be under the immediate supervision of women. Nevertheless, in cases where families are detained or interned, they shall, whenever possible, be held in the same place and accommodated as family units.

Additional Protocol II, 1977

Article 5(2)(a) of the 1977 Additional Protocol II provides, with regard to persons deprived of their liberty for reasons related to the armed conflict, that whether they are interned or detained, “except when men and women of a family are accommodated together, women shall be held in quarters separated from those of men and shall be under the immediate supervision of women”.

II. Other Instruments (in addition to treaties0

Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners

Rule 8(a) of the 1955 Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners provides: Men and women shall so far as possible be kept in separate institutions. In institutions which receive both men and women the whole of the premises allocated to women shall be entirely separate.

European Prison Rules Rule 11(2) of the 1987 European Prison Rules provides: “Males and females shall in principle be detained separately, although they may participate together in organised activities as part of an established treatment programme.”

UN Secretary-General’s Bulletin

Section 8(e) of the 1999 UN Secretary-General’s Bulletin provides: “Women whose liberty has been restricted shall be held in quarters separated from men’s quarters, and shall be under the immediate supervision of women.”

III. Military Manuals

[All the world's military manuals listed provide for the separation of male and female detainees. For example]:

Australia: Australia’s LOAC Manual (2006) states:

Women arrested, detained or interned for reasons connected with the armed conflict must be kept in separate quarters from men and under the immediate supervision of women. In cases where families are detained or interned, they should, whenever possible, be held in the same place and accommodated “as family units”.

The manual also states: Female prisoners [of war] must be treated with due regard to their sex and must in no case be treated less favourably than male prisoners. Their sex must also be taken into account in the allocation of labour and in the provision of sleeping and sanitary facilities.

United States of America

The US Manual on Detainee Operations (2008) states: “To the extent possible, accommodation must be made for female … detainees. Unless militarily unfeasible, female detainees must be searched by female service members and must be segregated from male detainees.”

V. National Legislation

VI. Other National Practice

India: Indian regulations provide that detained women may not be housed with men, and that, where possible, women should be looked after by female police officers

Serbia: In 2006, in its initial report to the Committee against Torture, Serbia stated:

  1. Male and female detainees are separated and intermingling is not allowed. …

  2. Under the Law on the Execution of Criminal Sanctions, women are sent to penal-correctional institutions for women. These institutions are separated from those for men and are organized in accordance with the needs of the women serving their sentences in them. The guards, medical staff and all other employees of those institutions in direct contact with inmates are women.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule119

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your personal opinion isn’t really relevant to what we are discussing and you tend to cling to it when you have no argument. The world doesn’t revolve around you and it’s sad that you can’t engage with what people are saying without resorting to your opinions when you have no rebuttal lol

You understand the concept of sex based spaces as well as the issue we are discussing. So that whole second paragraph is meaningless. You know what we are discussing. It’s just fruitless to skirt around it.

It is, at the least, annoying as fuck when males enter female spaces. Their very presence is annoying (again, to say the least). It is my problem that males can disrupt my spaces. That’s what we are fighting against. So again, not sure what point you’re trying to make. I don’t even think you’re sure. You just repeat what they taught you to say lol

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. 40% is still a lot of women you're asking to have their boundaries ignored in the benefict of the feeling of what... about 1% percent of men (using sex-based definitions, here)?

  2. It's not clear to me how many of those 60% of women knows that: most males who identify as "women" (aka "transwomen") do keep their penises, they do retain male patterns of criminality, most of them are sexually attracted to women and most of them discovered their "authentic selves" through porn. All of which could change their opinion on the matter of restrooms.

  3. You keep trying to center on restrooms and, maybe, changing rooms, but those are far from the only places where sex-seggregation is important for the safety and dignity of women. Speaking of which, could you explain to me if "transwomen" inclussion in women's spaces is so important for most Americans, why do the Washington state is so bent of making sure its citizens don't learn how many males claiming to be "women" there are in the female estate?

  4. Even if all American women were okay with the elimination of sex-seggregated spaces, why the rest of the world should follow suit? For all their empty talk about "intersectionalism", American liberals surely sound a lot like your typical American imperialists. Why does Joe Biden thinks he has the duty to lecture the world about the importance of "gender identity"? How is this is any different from the US playing world police and thinking itself as the bringer of democracy and human rights around the world (which, "curiously", involves a lot of invading foreign countries, war propaganda, overthrowing democratic goverments they don't like, assassinations, torturing suspected terrorists, arming extremists that suit their own interests, imposing economic sanctions, etcetera) as usual? Sorry, but I'm tired of Americans thinking they should shape the politics of any other country under the excuse of human rights.