QT: Why TM don't mind using women's spaces when it suits them? And why TW don't follow their example?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Obligatory not QT, but trans. I feel like there could be a few different answers. As u/Beris was saying, it just might not be as safe and men could be more likely to be upset by your presence. Maybe trans males might feel less sense of community or kinship with men/boys from growing up than trans females might feel with women/girls. I don’t know that for sure, but I feel like it would explain a lot. There is a part of just respecting boundaries less too, especially in instances where a person is obviously male. Females are socialized to care more about others feelings and males often times aren’t. I know GC isn’t happy any trans males using women’s bathroom, but if you pass, it is usually less disruptive in public to use the bathroom that matches how you look.

[–]beris😎 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I know the common response to the argument is "it's not women's job to sort out men's problems", but I've always felt that's too much of an oversimplification of the issue. I personally don't feel it's my responsibility to take on part of the collective burden toxic masculinity has on trans people, but at the same time I don't think its reasonable to put that on the backs on people with zero social power to enact that change. Go to the bathroom you look like you're supposed to use, don't use changing rooms or any other more intimate women's spaces, the world will continue to rotate.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Who decides what bathroom it looks like any particular individual is supposed to use, though?

[–]beris😎 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

This is wishy-washy make-believe scenario where everything fits nicely and pass/don't pass is an easy question to answer. The real world isn't, so there is no one size fits all answer. Besides, you know, just respect women and don't use women's facilities, but we're well past expecting that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What make believe scenario? There’s no scenario, it was question.

You said to use the bathroom it looks like you should use, I was just wondering who decides which bathroom it looks like any individual should use. Some people think if you’re at least attempting to “pass” that’s enough, others think if you pass go for it, and still others think it doesn’t matter how you look but how you identify. It’s a valid question to ask, based on your answer.

I agree “just respect women”, but that’s not what you said, a lot of people will think that the attempt to look “like a woman” is respectful and enough to grant access to female spaces, and as mentioned, others think you don’t even have to do that.

To me there is a one size fits all answer- use the bathroom meant for your sex. It’s the most fair for the most people. I believe it works for like 99% of us.

[–]beris😎 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

And it's one I cant answer because I'm not arbiter of nothing. I mean hell I'm mostly blind so I can literaly not be the deciding factor. In a perfect world scenario trans people would be their own best judge of passing and decide based on that. This isn't a perfect world, and a lot of them have no respect, it's just how I personally feel on the matter.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In a perfect world scenario trans people would be their own best judge of passing and decide based on that.

My idea of "a perfect world" is different. In my perfect world scenario, everyone would be raised to know what their sex is, to understand why we have sex separate facilities like loos and change rooms in the first place, and to have great respect for other people and their boundaries.

In your perfect world scenario, "trans" persons don't have to respect social conventions or other people's boundaries. So long as they personally believe they pass, they get free rein to ride roughshod over other people's right to privacy, dignity and safety. There are many problems with this individualistic arrangement in my view. It privileges trans people, assumes they all act in good faith, and puts all the power in their hands. It also assumes all trans people are accurate in their self-perceptions and judicious and fair-mined in the conclusions they reach. When the reality is, many, many more trans people - particularly the males - think they pass than actually do - and like everyone else, they are subject to errors in judgment and reasoning due to their own self-interests and selfish biases.

There are tons of male trans people in the world who think they pass because that's their view, and that's what their friends and family have told them. They take as affirmation of their belief that they pass the fact that they've never been challenged when they've used women's spaces like toilets. They are completely unaware that women can see full well they are male, but we don't say anything for a host of reasons - fear of provoking anger and perhaps an assault, confusion, discomfort, pity, not wanting to be impolite, not wanting to cause distress. So we keep our mouths closed, our heads down and get away as fast as we can.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I actually don’t disagree with you, at this point, I’m just wondering why that was your response if you know it’s not really something that would work irl?

I do disagree that trans people are the best at judging passing, I don’t know that they realize that there are tells that the rest of us notice. A lot of them (incorrectly) think they pass, particularly because the rest of us don’t tell them otherwise and they’re being told they pass by each other. I personally think that bathrooms should be sex based, and trans people can take a gamble on their passability if they want (meaning a woman should be able to tell an obvious male to exit a female space if she wants) but even that is flawed because I don’t think most women would say something when we notice a TW in our space.

I do get that in the real world we just have to deal, regardless of how we feel.

[–]beris😎 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I do get that in the real world we just have to deal, regardless of how we feel.

That's the crux of it, for me I guess. I agree most women wouldn't say anything to a nonpassing TW, so that makes "go where you'd look normal going" harder. But again like, at the end of the day, I'm happier if the absolute minimum to infringe on women's spaces is happening. Sorry if im not explaining myself well it's past my bedtime, I'm getting too sleepy.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get what you mean now.

And good night!

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure what your stance is on IDs but on the OG reddit r/GC sub I think I once said something to the extent of "At the end of the day no one really wants to police bathrooms but on the chance that weird things are going on and someone doesn't look like they belong, women would like the ability to have that person removed or otherwise informed that there are more appropriate bathrooms for them," which is to say if an obvs M is in the W bathroom, and probs doing more than just beelining to a toilet and back out with a hand wash - someone may talk with management.
Generally it was heavily upvoted and most GCs inc IIRC u/lovesloane agreed that that was pretty much the realistic GC take.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you not believe that there are appearances that are inherently cis or trans?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nobody looks “cis” because “cis” is bullshit.

I believe that most of the time we can all very clearly discern someone’s sex. I do think there are some (honestly probably most) trans people who are “visibly trans”.

So who gets to decide which spaces “visibly trans” (in other words, obviously not the sex they wish to be seen as, but clearly trans) people get to use?

That’s my point, “use the bathroom it looks like you’re supposed to use”- but when someone is clearly trans but also clearly male, which one do they look like they are supposed to use? QT would say the women’s room, others, myself included, would say the men’s.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

There is no looking trans or male, just people whom think some appearances look trans or male. So they should use the bathroom they identify with

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s absurd and laughable to act as if nobody looks male or obviously trans lol. I can name, off the top of my head, a dozen transwomen who look both visibly trans and obviously male. And half the human population looks (and is) male.

They identify as trans- give them a trans bathroom.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't think its reasonable to put that on the backs on people with zero social power to enact that change.

Why do you think they have no social power? So far trans identified people have the support of several goverments, political parties and big companies. They have conviced lots of people that "misgendering" is an unforgivable offense and even news outlets that are critical of transgenderims make sure to respect "prefered pronouns". They have succesfully imposed their own terminology even when it's unaccurate (e.g. sex assigned at birth). They are being succesfully at eroding women's spaces, even prissons. There are many males competing in women's sports. And I could keep going on with the list... It's not that transactivists have no political power, it's that they don't want any other solution. Males claiming to be women feel entintled to our spaces and every time you suggest building third spaces they complain this is like racial seggregation.

[–]beris😎 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Why do you think they have no social power

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Specifically, they don't have the social power to change toxic and violent masculinity specifically. They have political and social power, just not the kind that would do anything in this specific situation.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fair enough, but I think this is still a matter of willingness. They can't expect other males stop being violents when transactivists themselves allow a good deal of toxic behaviour within their own ranks. Also the danger posed to males claiming to be "women", especially in western countries, is being overstated on the Media.

https://4w.pub/breaking-down-claims-of-a-trans-genocide/

https://unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

[–]beris😎 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the links. I figured they were overstated but its nice to have numbers to point at. Cheers.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Go to the bathroom you look like you're supposed to use, don't use changing rooms or any other more intimate women's spaces, the world will continue to rotate.

I still feel like it’s not totally right, but I appreciate it. :)