QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (28 children)

1 - Sure, probably.

2 - 99% of the time it's what they have in their pants.

3 - Because it works? Why are anti-depressants sometimes used to treat ANXIETY instead of DEPRESSION?

4 - And you can prove this with stats that don't come from that one single GC think tank, right?

5 - Sucks to be them I guess, if you don't pass, you're living as whatever people see you as. If you're in a super liberal place maybe that's just a TW, if you aren't then probably not.

6 - So does neuroplasticity only exist when you guys want it to exist?

7 - IDK. It's not my fault language is changing and leaving you behind. It's just as much not my job to coddle you as it is not your job to coddle me.

8 - Literally only you guys see it as erasure, so no.

9a - They don't. The only people 'studying' desistance are people looking for those statistics, and use scummy ways to pad them like counting people who 'leave their clinic' for any reason as desisters.

b - Your guess is as good as mine. I'd be more than all for putting money into better vetting out young trans people, because it's still nowhere near perfect, but that's not the way the world works.

10 - No.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

2 - 99% of the time it's what they have in their pants.

Sorry, but the idea that "the difference between men & women" is mostly "what they have in their pants" not only comes off as puerile, it's a completely male POV.

The most important of the sex organs insofar as being determinative of whether one is male or female are the gonads, which produce the female or male gametes (ova or sperm) and also produce most of the major sex hormones that each sex produces which gender ideologues are focused on, namely estrogen in females and testosterone in males. (Females physiology involves a lot of other sex hormones too, but genderists seem focused on estrogen as the female hormone that counts most of all.)

But the only people whose gonads are in their pants - or between the legs, to use the other phrase commonly used in these comparisons - are males. The gonads of female people are inside our abdomens.

There are thousands of physical differences between male and female human beings entirely apart from with "what they have in their pants." Like the size of the hearts and lungs; the differences in the cells and secretions of the respiratory tract; the shape, size and density of bones.

Also, it's not the norm in every culture for people to wear pants (trousers, breeches). There are a lot of places in the world even today where even males wear attire that doesn't involve pants.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

1- that's certainly the GC view of men like Bruce Jenner

2- and the other 1%? does the difference suddenly change for them?

3- cross-sex hormones don't cure dysphoria, only desistance can do that, which transition hampers.

4- just do a google image search for "transgender sex offender", or is google images also a GC think tank?

5- ...I mean, that's the truscum view

6- again if brainsex is evidence of identity then either HSTS' are all gay guys, or all gay guys are women. The alternative is to chuck out the "evidence" & dispose of the "brainsex" argument altogether.

7- I think you mean law rather than language, since everyone still uses gender to refer to the sexes.

8- how is making every single-sex term unisex not erasure of the female sex?

9a- but even the DSM-V quotes a high desistance rate. is the highest scientific authority on the topic wrong? are you the authority? or is self-ID ideology anti-science?

b- according to the DSM-V up to 100% of early-onset dysphorics desist. Surely we should be looking into what is hindering the remainder from desisting, instead of assuming that "young trans people" are a real thing.

10- a wholly GC view

(I obviously asked too many questions. Apologies at all)

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

(I obviously asked too many questions. Apologies at all)

TBH, I'm sitting here stuck in an airport with nothing but a laptop because my flight was cancelled, this is the most fun I'm getting tonight. There's almost no way in hell I'm coming back to it when I'm home but it's fun while it's here, you know?

1 - okay? I mean, it's my view too, so cool.

3 - You're right, CSHT doesn't CURE dysphoria, it TREATS dysphoria. Which is why I didn't use the word 'cure'. Because as far as modern psychology knows, there is no cure. Which is why I'd absolutely fucking love to see your sources saying 'only desistance' can cure dysphoria. Please.

5 - And I'm truscum, who would have guessed.

9 - Bud, I know haven't actually read the DSM 5, but at least try to pretend like you have.

10 - Sorry, I just find this funny that, like, you're somehow okay with it because it falls in line with your own views. You don't have to respond to things you agree with, you know.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

3- Desistance is literally defined as lack of dysphoria i.e. it cures it https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

9- It's not necessary to read all of the DSM-V, only the parts on gender dysphoria. One of the sources it quoted had a 100% desistance rate. The lowest stat I've seen was still over 60%.

10- it's just inconsistent with QT ideology. I'm not going to assume you knew that.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

2- Can you define what a man and a woman are without using circular definitions or rely on sexist setereotypes?

3- Where is the proof that it works?

4- Record numbers of transgender prisoners transition from men to women

One in 50 prisoners identifies as transgender amid concerns inmates are attempting to secure prison perks

6- OP is not GC. And when GC denied neuroplasticity, anyway? Do you even know what that word means?

7 and 8 - Of course, trans identified people are the only people who matter for QT...

9a) Are you saying that desistence must not be researched?

9b) How can you design a vetting system when QT ban any research that they don't like (e.g. desistence, detransition, alternative treatments, autoginephillia, causes of gender dysphoria, why the sex ratio has switched in recent years)? Why do "gender affirming treatments" studies avoid using controls (and by controls I mean people with gender dysphoria not being treated with "gender affirming treatments"?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I mean I'm more gender abolitionist I guess, but I thought that's what most GC feminists are.

I don't think you need to ask for a definition without stereotypes. Never understood why every feminist seems to make this qualification to the question. Personally never witnessed someone ever even answer the question, let alone using stereotypes.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The point is to highlight how sexist their ideas of women and men are. A man with long hair wearing a dress and lipstick and who likes soap operas and hates sports? According to QT, he must really be a "woman"! A woman with short hair wearing trousers, who is good at math and likes action movies? Again to them, she must be really a "man"! I guess they realize this and that is why they usually avoid answering the question.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

2 - 'Adult human male or transgender female' 'Adult human female or transgender male' EZ PZ

3 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16758113/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-009-9551-1 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22736225/ literally 2 seconds in google.

4 - ? Neither of these links are about trangender sex offenders, they're about male prisoners trying to abuse a broken system.

6 - And I'm supposed to keep track of these things? My point still stands, brain sex is a stupid fucking concept. When did I say GC denies neuroplasticity?

7&8 - I mean, they matter more to me than you do. I'm certain the opposite is true for you. It's just the way life works.

9a - I'm saying the current research is awful.

9b -

and by controls I mean people with gender dysphoria not being treated with "gender affirming treatments

Because that's unethical and insane?

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

2a- So, what do adult human males and transgender females have in common to be grouped together? What do adult human females and transgender males have in common to be grouped together.

2b- How are you defining male that transgender males are not included in your definition of man? How are you defining female that transgender females are not included in your definition of woman?

3- They are paywalled. I may adress them later if I find a free version.

4- I need to label better my list of links... These two are about sex offenders.

Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears

High Court rules transgender women CAN go into female prisons: Judges rule government's policy is lawful despite claims from inmate it raised risk of sex attacks

Those are official numbers from the British goverment. Real numbers may be slightly higher because males with a GRC are counted as female (but nobdy is trying to erase sex, right?). Notice that the judges of this case recognized the greater risk for female inmates, but they ruled women must suck it up because the feelings of males who identify as trans are more important. Tell me again how are trans identified people the most oprressed?

7 and 8- And yet women are supused to use "prefered pronouns" and "inclusive language" and acept males in women's spaces because...? You're the one who thinks we're a hate group for refusing to do all those things yet, when questioned about TRA policies' impact on women, you simplely say that is how life works? Seriously?

9a- Have you read any pro-QT paper?

9b- That is how clinical research works. To prove that a new drug is effective to treat a certain disease you need to do a randomized double blind trial where you give a group of subjects the drug you're testing and another group of subjects, a placebo. The participants don't know which one they are taking. Neither do the doctors. If there is already a treatment available, you can include the standard treatment to see if the new drug offer any advantage over it.

https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group

https://www.scribbr.com/methodology/control-group/

https://www.scribbr.com/methodology/double-blind-study/

Blinding for "gender affirment treatment" is not possible, but there is not excuse not to use a control group. But researchers never compare patients treated with "gender affirming treatment" with patients receiving not treatment or receive alternative treatments. They use the general population as control instead, except this doesn't tell us wheter patients are getting better from the treatment provided. Worse, for ideological reasons nowadays researchers will match subjects with controls by "gender identity" instead of sex and, thus, introducing more variables in the mix. Other common methodological problems of studies supporting "affirming" the identity of trans identified people are: they usually use a convenience sampling method, lack of long-term studies, and a high rate of participant's drop-out.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

'Adult human male or transgender female' 'Adult human female or transgender male' EZ PZ

An apple is a round fruit produced by a tree of the species Malus domestica, or a brand of computer. See, they're in the same group and if you don't put laptop pieces in your pie you're a bigot.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

2 is not a definition, it is two different examples you claim to be covered by each word. Are you saying you provided two definitions for woman or man? When a word has two meanings you number the different meanings. If you did that then we could say, "I'm using the first definition, not the second" to clarify when confusion arises between the two contradictory definitions you're providing for each word.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

That's... not how definitions work, but okay.

If I tell you I'm European, does that tell you I'm a European native or a person who lives in Europe?

[–]emptiedriver 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If I tell you I'm European, does that tell you I'm a European native or a person who lives in Europe?

If you're European, you have a European passport. That means you're a native. Someone living abroad is not European but a European resident. They still belong to the country that they have the passport from, unless they go through the process to change their citizenship.

It is possible to change citizenship, of course, while it is not possible to change sex. One is an artificial distinction created by human borders while the other is a physical reality.

'Adult human female or transgender male'

If any kind of female or a certain kind of male is a woman, does that mean that a transgender female is also a woman? Why would a transgender female not belong under "adult human female"? Is a transgender person not also an adult human person?

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Wow. There is a lot wrong to unpack here. First off, no, the word 'European' does not mean I have a European passport. It also doesn't mean I'm a native. It COULD mean I am a native. It could also mean I live there. That's it. Way to misunderstand the prompt, champ!

does that mean that a transgender female is also a woman?

transgender female

transgender

So, that would be a no. Because they are transgender. Exclusionary vocabulary.

Why would a transgender female not belong under "adult human female"?

I mean, they COULD, but now you're getting into the realm of having multiple words to describe you, and having to pick the best one for any situation. To take from my example from earlier that you didn't understand, I am European, and American (A native of Europe, a permanent resident of America.) The answer to 'what' I am, in this case, isn't a definitive answer, but a social answer, because in most cases, just saying 'both' isn't helpful.

[–]emptiedriver 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

First off, no, the word 'European' does not mean I have a European passport.

Well, I'm American but living in Europe and would never call myself European. As far as I understand the meaning of the word, it only refers to people who are citizens of European countries. I have a residence card, but I still have to go to the American consulate to take care of official papers.

Still, that's just semantics - you are saying that you can be European and American at the same time if you have an American passport and live in Europe. Are you then trying to say that you can be a man and a woman at the same time if you are male but presenting as female?

So, that would be a no. Because they are transgender. Exclusionary vocabulary.

How do we know if something is exclusionary when the definitions are so hazy... a transgender female is not a woman because "transgender" is exclusive, but a trans woman is a woman because "trans" is just an adjective, is that right?

I mean, they COULD, but now you're getting into the realm of having multiple words to describe you, and having to pick the best one for any situation. To take from my example from earlier that you didn't understand, I am European, and American (A native of Europe, a permanent resident of America.) The answer to 'what' I am, in this case, isn't a definitive answer, but a social answer, because in most cases, just saying 'both' isn't helpful.

So... you are both a man and a woman but it's "not helpful" to say both? That it isn't really exclusionary vocabulary in any other sense except you deciding to exclude one of the definitions.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Are you now conflating how conversations work with how definitions work? I assure you, I described how definitions work accurately. Open a dictionary. ... I'll wait. ... OK. You see words with multiple definitions, and you see them numbered. You may see words with one definition. They are not because there is no need. The word in that latter case would have only one real usage. Any other usage would be at best slang, but it would not be a real meaning or use of the word. You offered multiple definitions for a word as if they were together as one. When a word legitimately has multiple definitions, numbering makes it clear what is being said. You offered two contradictory ideas smushed together like they are one. By doing that, you are erasing the one, actual, meaning of woman by conflating it with something entirely different just like you're doing here with offering a conversational example as an example of how you wish definitions work.

Everything in "QT", and now many other places, is built on fuzzy language and insisting on a lack of clarity. You are playing by your rules, but those are unworkable and self-serving. But, as you are so open about throwing everyone else under the bus, how you do not care about others and only care about yourself because you assume everyone else is like that, because you are apparently living the dream, It makes sense that you would use fuzzy language to twist it into looking like it works the way you want it to work.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

3 - Because it works? Why are anti-depressants sometimes used to treat ANXIETY instead of DEPRESSION?

If cross-sex hormones work, then do they have sex dysphoria and not gender dysphoria?

4 - And you can prove this with stats that don't come from that one single GC think tank, right?

Not only is this not an answer, but it's a question in response to a question. Can you see how that's evasive?

5 - Sucks to be them I guess, if you don't pass, you're living as whatever people see you as. If you're in a super liberal place maybe that's just a TW, if you aren't then probably not.

So, why are these poor souls not living as they are living but instead living as other's see them? Are you saying their identity is assigned to them, and their own sense of identity is not valid?

6 - So does neuroplasticity only exist when you guys want it to exist?

Another non-answer. If anything the concept of neuroplasticity would make the "lady brain" idea completely invalid in determining a person's gender, if gender were a real thing that is.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

1 - ...because that's just what it got called? This is a weird fucking hill to die on.

2 - If I ask you why all GC are axe murderers and you say that's stupid what are you smoking, isn't that evasive? (hint, it isn't, because it's a stupid question)

3 - Their sense of identity is their own, I can't change how the world around them views them. It's just the reality of the situation.

If anything the concept of neuroplasticity would make the "lady brain" idea completely invalid in determining a person's gender,

Yes. That's why i posted a non-answer for a non-question.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

2- I think OP meant all "transgender" sex offender are male, not all male "transgender" are sex offenders.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, it's still a literally unprovable point, but that's a lot better than the alternative.

Side note, thanks for deleting Flippy's comment btw. It's not much but it does go a long way to show QT users you care a little bit about bad actors.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Taking it literally, the phrase all "transgeder" sex offenders are male is likely false. However, I don't think it's far from the truth. The vast majority of sex offenders are male and trans identified males retain male patterns of criminality.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#s4

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

1 It's not a hill I'm dying on. Taken with your flippancy about female erasure, the way language is manipulated and made to be less accurate is a problem. Calling it "gender dysphoria" makes it seem like gender is real. It's not. Calling sex dysphoria places the focus on exactly what it is. It also makes it tougher to pretend sex is not real. Sex dysphoria it is. Thanks for clarifying it for me. I'll not use that other inaccurate phrase anymore.

2 Actually you're being evasive x2 now on this. You did not call it a stupid question. You actually assumed there was data that backed up the claim and you attacked the source you assumed it was from. Attacking the source is a logical fallacy, or for team QT/TRA par for the course.

3 Does the reality of that situation only apply to them, or to full range of people in the categories of cross-dressers and/or trans people?

Are you admitting the "lady brain" concept is nonsense and does not bolster the claims that gender and trans gender is a real thing?

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

1 - The term Gender identity disorder was publicly coined in 1980 and was in circulation before that. It's just the word that's used. You're reading way too much into it. I could literally care less what it's called, it's just that it IS called gender dysphoria.

2

attacking the source is a logical fallacy

Uh-huh, sure. Unbiased sources are important in a debate space. If you can't find any that's on you.

3 - Bud. Reality applies to everyone. That's how it works. I will always be trans. I pass, so that fact matters to literally only me, my husband, and medical professionals, and for someone who doesn't that group of people increases.

4 - Yes. It is nonsense. Dysphoria is a mental disorder. That's all it is. There's no magical 'look our brains are like their's so it all fits'.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

1 Care to guess when "women", and its use to mean adult human females, was publicly coined? I think you said language changes above. Keep up, it's sex dysphoria. It's the more accurate term.

2 You're the one assuming the source is biased, but calling it biased does not refute it. That's why attacking the source, also known as attacking the messenger, is a logical fallacy. You can pretend it's not, but you don't refute something by impugning person saying it.

3 Sounds like you're throwing those people, who aren't living the dream like you, under the bus.

4 We agree! Great! But if as you say in three, that you "will always be trans", but the lady brain stuff is nonsense, what objective criteria can anyone use to confirm some is trans and not a cross dresser, or a cross dresser having a laugh and claiming at some point in time to be trans? What makes it more than just something someone claims?

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I think you said language changes above

I didn't, but it's true. Sex dysphoria isn't used widely in the vernacular. Maybe it will be. It's more accurate, I don't know why you think I'd be against it, I'm just using the common medically cited term. I hope someday you'll change the minds of the individuals who name these things, maybe the DSM 6 can have your contribution in there.

You're the one assuming the source is biased

There's a difference between assumption and fact. The one source anyone ever cites isn't from a published study, it's from a survey run by a group of privately funded radfems. And just like every privately funded think tank group, you can not, under ANY circumstances, trust their data.

Sounds like you're throwing those people, who aren't living the dream like you, under the bus.

Not sure what you want me to do. There's no bus I'm throwing people under, it's just the way it is. Short of changing the minds of every single person on the planet, it won't change.

what objective criteria can anyone use to confirm some is trans

The medical condition. That's it. If someone wants to be a woman or a man because they like the identity of it then good for them, they aren't trans. Separation of the two groups would do wonders I think, but again, there's nothing I personally can do about that.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Still, impugning a source does not refute it. You may not trust their data, but the data stands unless you can show flaws in how it was collected or other related methodological flaws.

A medical condition is diagnosed independently of what ever a patient says or does not say. Wanting something is not a medical condition. Making an unverifiable claim is also not a medical condition. It might point to a psychological condition.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A medical condition is diagnosed independently of what ever a patient says or does not say

Glad we agree.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If so, then how is Sex Dysphoria, wrongly called gender dysphoria to make what is it less clear and obvious, diagnosed?