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[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (13 children)

Why should women specifically have the right to privacy from men, but not from other women? That doesn't make sense. If you remove the safety aspect, gendered spaces indeed lose meaning. Just saying "I don't want men around because yucky" is not good enough reason .

[–]FlanJam 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Women do have the right to privacy from other women. If a woman peeped on another woman in a single stall changing room, then obviously that's wrong. Locker rooms, however, women expect to have to share with other women. Part of it probably due to practicality, making every locker room individual stalls would require a lot more space. Part of it probably has to do with societal standards, women sharing spaces with other women is the norm and most people seem to be okay with this system.

I don't think I'm saying anything weird, I'm just describing the way things currently are. If you don't think it makes sense you're free to advocate for coed locker rooms, I'm sure some already exist. And who knows, maybe things will go that way in the future. But right now I think most women prefer spaces to be sex segregated.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Privacy is important too. Young girls with first periods are fine changing pads when other girls are present in public bathroom. But would not be fine in unisex one.

Privacy is one of big issues in African countries for this reason.

As example - in recent Kenya report, they found that women are worse at education because the lack of single-sex spaces. They either have unisex bathrooms or none at all. So girls and teen women are skipping classes during periods, which is leading to them getting behind in knowledge. Feminists there are strongly fighting for single-sex spaces. One African feminist (I don't remember from what country) even said that single-sex spaces are very important requirement for women to gain equality and to be included in social life. And that lack of them is a sign of control and policing over women.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (10 children)

Young girls with first periods are fine changing pads when other girls are present in public bathroom. But would not be fine in unisex one.

Why not? And no, just saying "I don't wanna" isn't good enough.

in recent Kenya report...

🙄 Irrelevant. We are obviously talking about a reality where women/girls would not have to put up with harassment from men/boys all their life. Having mixed spaces makes no sense under the patriarchy because sexed spaces exist to protect female people from male harassment. This point has been stated so why do we have to go over it again?

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Why it isn't good enough? Comfort, dignity and not feeling afraid is already enough argument for single sex spaces. And safeguarding is even bigger argument. Even if males would not be violent and females would not be in danger - just named reasons should be already enough.

They feel uncomfortable and ashamed. While other girls understand them and may experienced the same - and boy never can understand or experience this.

Sports are single-sex as well, and not for safety reasons (in contact sports for safety reasons too, but it is small part of sports).

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (8 children)

Comfort, dignity and not feeling afraid is already enough argument for single sex spaces.

Comfort? Dignity? These are extremely subjective. Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of. And yet we all still change together. Men could theoretically achieve the same status if they didn't consistently show they can't behave like human beings around women and compromise their safety.

just named reasons should be already enough.

Your reasons are based in harassment and fear of violence. You've provided no other reasons, and yet you claimed others exist.

Sports are single-sex as well

This is due to fairness. Fairness in competition has nothing to do with changing or peeing near other people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Comfort? Dignity? These are extremely subjective. Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of. And yet we all still change together.

But girls' & women's need and desire for comfort, dignity and privacy isn't just about wanting "to avoid sexually titillating" others. Often it's not about that at all. In fact, the way you've framed the situation - placing all the onus on the persons being viewed (in your view those who "titillate") and none on the viewers (who in your view are liable to be titillated at the drop of hat, or rather trou) - conveys a view of human sexual arousal and functioning that a lot of people would take issue with. And which comes off as puerile or adolescent.

The way you've framed this also assumes that most/a lot of people believe ourselves to be so highly attractive to others that we're convinced they'll get turned on sexually just by seeing or being in close proximity to our unclothed or partially clothed bodies. When, in fact, a lot of people have such negative body-images that they think the opposite - that other people will be repulsed by the sight of their naked or partially unclothed bodies. And when, in fact, due to age and general appearance, a majority of the population do not think we are likely to arouse the lustful passions of every Tom, Dick and Nancy we encounter.

Take age, for example. Most women "over a certain age" know full well that we are essentially invisible to "the male gaze" generally coz of our age - and that our age makes us unlikely to catch the fancy and stir the loins of lesbians and bi women on the prowl too. In the US, more than 60 million are over age 50 - and the majority of us would not list wanting to "avoid sexually titillating" others of either sex as amongst the top reasons why we desire and need the comfort & dignity afforded by sex segregation as well as by courteous, discreet behavior from all parties in shared toileting and changing facilities. Some of us wouldn't list it at all. Same goes for many older men. Honestly, a vast proportion of the population does not desire bodily privacy because we think getting a gander of our unclothed bods is gonna cause strangers to get "titillated."

You also are framing the situation as if girls and women are entirely analogous to boys and men physically and in terms of how we are treated in society. Neither of which is true.

In human cultures, girls and women's bodies are sexually objectified in ways and to an extent that boys and men's bodies are not. Moreover, girls and women's bodies go through processes and changes - such as menstruation, pregnancy, lactation - that male bodies do not. For both these reasons, many girls and women feel special discomfort at the prospect of being naked or partially undressed - and of having to deal with intimate bodily matters like menstruation and blood leakage, pregnancy vomiting, pregnancy-related issues like piles, miscarriage, post-partum or post-abortion bleeding, leaking breasts, flooding from fibroids or menopause, urinary or fecal incontinence due to aging, etc - in a room where men might be coming and going, some might look, leer and listen - and some might visit and linger in precisely for the purpose of looking, leering and listening (and sniffing too).

A significant percentage of the male population has one or several paraphilias. As a result, a good number of boys & men engage in voyuerism, flashing, public masturbation and are aroused by matters of female biology such as menstruation, pregnancy, breastfeeding, and female urination. Some men get off simply on hearing girls & women urinate. Most/many of these men typically do not ever escalate to physically assaulting girls or women, so they pose no safety threat. But still it's reasonable for girls & women not to want to be around them particularly when we are naked, partially naked and/or dealing with intimate bodily matters.

Similarly, many boys and men who don't have paraphilias, are not generally considered perverts, & never have and probably never will commit sexual assault, are nevertheless accustomed to using the toilets & change facilities at school, work and in public places to jerk off in. Tucking into the boys or men's room to "rub one out" in the course of a work shift or school day is customary behavior for a huge number of boys & men. It's perfectly reasonable for girls & women not to want to be anywhere near this activity.

When you scoffingly say

Comfort? Dignity? These are extremely subjective.

It makes you seem extremely naive about how some boys & men behave in loos, change rooms, locker rooms, hospital wards and other such spaces outside the home. It also makes you come off as very insensitive to, and dismissive of, the feelings of the bulk of the female population, and our need and desire for comfort and dignity. It's like telling people who need special accommodations coz of disabilities, Accessibility? That's extremely subjective. Accessibility to people in wheelchairs means one thing, but to people who are blind or visually impaired it means another. Then there's all those pesky people who can't hear... See, the complaints & issues the disabled have are all subjective. They don't even agree amongst themselves. If we take one group's subjective situation and feelings into account, where will it end? Best if they all just suck it up and make do with things the way they are.

Also, please provide some evidence for your claim that

Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of.

And in so doing, please specify the sex, age range, place of origin & residence, religion etc of the "tons of people" you are referring to. And their sexual orientation, or rather their presumed sexual orientation.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

placing all the onus on the persons being viewed (in your view who "titillate") and none on the viewers (who in your view are liable to be titillated at the drop of hat, or rather trou) - conveys a view of human sexual arousal and functioning that a lot of people would take issue with.

I was talking about the reason why these persons being viewed have an issue being viewed by the viewers, hence why I was talking about the feelings of the persons being viewed, rather than the viewers.

Your entire reply is pretty much the same playing-dumb act all over again despite these things already being addressed: Having mixed spaces makes no sense under the patriarchy because sexed spaces exist to protect female people from male harassment. No-one here is debating this. The thing being questioned is why sexed spaces would need to exist if this wasn't a concern.

Also, please provide some evidence for your claim that tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of. And in so doing, please specify the sex, age range, place of origin & residence, religion etc of the "tons of people" you are referring to. And their sexual orientation, or rather their presumed sexual orientation.

lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was talking about the reason why these persons being viewed have an issue being viewed by the viewers

I disagree with "the reason" you have cited. I don't there is one reason that many humans have an issue being viewed naked or partially naked by others of the opposite sex in communal settings, and some might have an issue being viewed by members of their own sex in such settings too. I further don't believe in the one reason that you have cited as "the reason." Coz I don't assume rabid homophobia to be as rife you seem to think it is, nor justifiable as you portray it. Moreover, I don't think a majority of the world's populace perceives their own bodies to be so attractive & sexually alluring that they take it for granted that heterosexual strangers of the opposite sex and homosexual strangers of the same sex all will become sexually titillated if they see us naked or unclothed.

Your entire reply is pretty much the same playing-dumb act all over again despite these things already being addressed: Having mixed spaces makes no sense under the patriarchy because sexed spaces exist to protect female people from male harassment. No one here is debating this.

But I am debating it. I do not agree with you that the only reason single-sex spaces exist is to protect female people from male harassment. Boys customarily are not allowed to accompany their mums or carers into female loos, change rooms and locker rooms once they turn 8 not because everyone thinks boys of that age are likely to be sexual harassers, but because humans in many diverse cultures are raised to have very strong feelings about, and boundaries around, bodily privacy. And because most cultures have different standards for what's appropriate and "feels right" in shared settings involving nudity and intimate bodily functions depending on the sex and ages of the persons there.

Though some boys and men are abusive towards their mothers, and some even beat their mothers, most of the world's males do not and would not sexually harass their own mothers. Yet once boy children are over a certain age, most of their mothers do not feel comfortable undressing or using the toilet in front of or in the presence of their sons.

Most girls & women are not comfortable taking off their clothes, changing sanitary pads or washing blood from their vaginas off their hands in front of their male adolescent and adult relatives even when those male relatives are all nice, decent guys whom the girls & women correctly perceive as posing no threat of harassment.

When I point out that there is more to single-sex spaces than you say, you dismiss my points out of hand by saying

Your entire reply is pretty much the same playing-dumb act all over again

And when asked for evidence of the unsubstantiated claims you make, you come back with

lol

But I don't think I'm the one playing dumb here. And I don't think others will see "lol" as the clever comeback you seem to think it is.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Tons of people feel discomfort around homosexuals in their spaces, and for good reason: people want to avoid sexually titillating someone whose sexual attraction they do not want to invite or be a part of.

Are you sure? Maybe years ago. I’m sure someone does, but I can’t imagine it’s very many people. If a homosexual person is being creepy that is uncomfortable, but not just being there. I feel like the creeping doesn’t happen much though.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

I don't think anyone's ever done a study on it, but I remember it being a point of contention in sports where some straight players were uncomfortable changing around an out gay player. In a lot (in my experience most) of people's minds, the idea of being comfortable with nudity assumes a lack of sexuality in the environment. This, rather than fear of harassment, is presumed to be the reason for separating the sexes - privacy from being viewed sexually by someone whose attraction you do not want to be a part of.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think anyone's ever done a study on it, but I remember it being a point of contention in sports where some straight players were uncomfortable changing around an out gay player.

So the assumptions and claims you've made about the entire human race are based on anecdotal evidence from an unspecified place and time in the past about some persons presumably of the male sex physically suited to male competitive sports at the time in their lives when they were actively playing. Meaning not just males of peak fitness age (adolescence and young adulthood), but males of that age who've chosen to devote significant time & energy to pursuits that often involve lots of macho posturing, chest-thumping, one-upmanship and tests of "manliness" - and which were created as stand-ins for the very male enterprise of battle/warfare.

You seem to think that coz some young males heavily invested in & actively playing sports are or have been vocally homophobic, then all human beings must also be homophobes - and everyone's presumed homophobia must be as extreme and run just as deep as that of some male athletes. When the reality is, even amongst males actively playing male competitive sports, the prevalence and depth of homophobia is likely to vary enormously depending on the culture, the era, the sport and the individuals. Social attitudes commonly found amongst males who play soccer, rugby, (American) football, cricket, basketball or who box, kickbox, wrestle and do MMA might well be different to those of male tennis players, gymnasts, swimmers, divers, track & field athletes and males who practice such martial artists as karate, judo and kendo. And within each sport, a wide variety of attitudes is most likely to be found.

Moreover, even if we stay within the narrow realm of sports, I think observations and suppositions about the levels and kinds of homophobia found in some male sports don't necessarily apply to female sports.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I like how you're both claiming "this doesn't happen" and it the same comment talking about why it happens lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Huh? Way to spectacularly miss the point.

Just because something happens sometimes amongst some subsets of male people of a certain age group in some niche milieus in some cultures, places and eras doesn't mean the same thing happens all the time amongst all human beings of both sexes and all age groups in all milieus in all cultures, places and eras - or amongst females in their own culture and era of similar ages in analogous niche milieu settings.

Moreover, humans (and other animals) can and do engage in the same exact behaviors for very different reasons. A lot of human behavior is motivated by multiple different reasons at once, and serves several purposes simultaneously. But rather than see this, you insist that there is only one reason that sex segregation and specifically female-only spaces came about - and, worse, that "the reason" is the cockamamie one you've come up with.