QT/trans: What would be the worst things to happen if the concept of gender did not exist?

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[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (53 children)

You have no idea what the “Gender Identity movement” is about if you think that we support any sort of gender roles. We are the gnc people, unlike most of Gender Critical with their talk of “female appearances”. Lookin at you /u/loveSloane

[–]AlexisK 15 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

We are the gnc people

Then why politicians are pushing for puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones? Then why Mermaids and GLAAD are saying that if girl is tomboy - she is boy? Then why transwomen and transmen are making all those surgeries to look like opposite sex?

If you are just gender non-conforming - why everything is so focused on being gender conforming to opposite sex?

This sounds like gaslighting, to be honest.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

Because those things are helpful for trans kids and teenagers. Mermaid and GLAAD aren’t saying that being a tomboy is inherently evidence of being trans. We have those surgeries because of cis people being more likely to abuse us when we don’t match cis normative appearance standards, just the same as cis people who have the same surgeries do.

Everything isn’t focused on conformity, that is just the part of the trans movement that you are focused on.

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

[–]AlexisK 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Again.

If you are suffering from this conformity, then WHY you (as movement, politicians, organizations) are pushing this conformity so hard and demanding it? Why you are not fighting with GC feminists to abolish gender and instead reinforcing gender in laws? This just makes no sense. At all.

Mermaid and GLAAD aren’t saying that being a tomboy is inherently evidence of being trans.

Not sure about GLAAD, but Mermaids were saying that. I am not sure if they are saying this anymore, thought, as they changed their positions few times.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

We aren’t pushing conformity hard. Your side is though by working with right-wingers to further your goals. We are the ones who’ve gotten the supreme court to say that you can’t be fired for being GNC in your appearance.

Can you prove that Mermaid said any such thing?

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

Huh? Gaslighting

is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment (Wikipedia)

To gaslight is to

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity (Oxford)

Gaslighting need not involve relating anything about the gaslighter's own "thoughts and experiences" at all, whether true or untrue. Often, it means lying about objective reality. Like whether the lights keep dimming and flickering as in the famous movie that gave rise to the term.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Yes but the aspect of it being gaslighting was that the man knew what was occurring and lied to the woman about what was happening. Thats what makes it gaslighting

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're acting as though your earlier post said something different to what it did actually say. You said

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

Which was solipsistic and untrue. Now you say that in the movie, what made the man's behavior

gaslighting was that the man knew what was occurring and lied to the woman about what was happening.

Which is very different to what you first said. And you are still missing half the definition, the part that has to do with the gaslighter intentionally manipulating. The man in the movie didn't just "know what was occurring and lied" about it, he arranged what occurred with the intent of lying to the woman about it afterwards for the express purpose of making her doubt her own perceptions and sanity.

The man played by Charles Boyer in Gaslight intentionally altered the environment the woman played by Ingrid Bergman was in (her house) by turning down the gas that fueled the lights when he left the house in the evenings. Then he continually told her that what she had seen with her own eyes - the gaslight dimming & flickering - never actually happened, it was something she imagined - and was a sign of her being neurotic, anxious, untrustworthy and most likely off her rocker.

Your claim that intentionally lying to someone else is gaslighting is not true. Even intentionally lying about something consistently over time isn't gaslighting. Gaslighting by definition involves using manipulation to try to make another person or persons doubt their own sanity.

Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton continually lied to advance their political careers and save their own asses. Bernie Madoff lied to his clients about their financial holdings for years. Many people lie on their tax forms. We all sometimes tell lies to make other people feel better: The new outfit you bought looks great on you. I'll think of you every moment you're away. The dinner you've cooked is delicious. None of these kinds of lies are gaslighting.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t see how what Im saying is any different from what you’re saying. The man had to lie about what was actually reality in order to manipulate her into doubting her own sense of reality. That description matches all given definitions

[–]kwallio 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You're so funny.

We are the gnc people

Where would trans ppl be without gender roles and stereotyped gender presentation

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

Um better off trans people?

[–]kwallio 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Trans aren't GNC. They literally conform to gender stereotypes, thats why they're trans. You're not doing anything revolutionary, just reinforcing gender stereotypes that hurt women.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

It’s not about conforming to societal stereotypes its about group identification

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And those groups are defined..how?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Via an instinct that cues off of certain biological traits in people (presumably some of the same traits that infants use to discern the sex of their parents) that exist in the individuals environment and then modulated through exposure to preexisting societal gender categories.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Infants discern the differences between their parents and other persons they interact with, and many of these differences are sex-linked. However, I think it's a stretch to say this means they "discern the sex of their parents."

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is just biological essentialism. Gender is not biology, biology is not gender. Do better, please.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

The more I read your comments, the more I realize how hilarious you really are 😂 I mean this in the absolute nicest way possible, thank you!

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Aw thanks

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

You do understand that transitioning is conforming to a different gender role right? Trans people say I don't like this [male/female]box, I want to get into this [female/male]box instead.

Gender critical people say fuck the boxes. Your sex is not your fate. There are two sexes and infinite personalities. There is no need whatsoever to modify your body. You are your body and your body is just fine the way it is. You know what actual gender nonconformity actually is? Being 100% honest about who and what you are and pursuing your interests regardless of whether they are 'masculine' or 'feminine', the haters be damned. Not trying to fool them into thinking you are the opposite sex. That's the cowards solution.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (9 children)

No trans people are against boxes as well

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then what exactly are you transitioning into? Why is there any need whatsoever to change your body?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So why are we supposed to treat men in dresses like women?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (6 children)

You’re not. Trans women are women

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How are they women, without gender?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Nope. Never have been, never will be.

But for the sake of pedants, why are we supposed to treat people who are observed male at birth like they are women if they say they are/wear clothes deemed women’s clothes

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Coz males, particularly males who claim to be women, want us to think they are the ultimate and only authority on what women are. We don't count to them. Coz they don't see us human beings who exist in our own right who are different and separate to them. They see women only as reflections of their own very male fantasies and desires.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perfectly put.

A woman is nothing to these people but a performance they insist they do best.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women are people with female bodies. Trans women do not have female bodies. Women need a word for themselves. Trans Women aka Men aka people with male bodies have no right whatsoever to define womanhood for us. The only way you can justify considering men who claim to be women women is by claiming womanhood = a certain subset of sex role stereotypes.

Pray tell what does the magical woman essence consist of that means male bodied people can be lumped in with women aka adult human females? If you get rid of gender roles aka sex roles aka sex stereotypes from the debate all you have left is that there are two types of human bodies male and female. Males can never be female full stop.

Black is not white. Transwomen are not women. They're men. You're going to have a hell of a good argument to convince me that men can be women.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

On what basis?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Oh hey little buddy!

Sure thing. Claiming to have a gender identity in the first place is definitely not rooted in misogynistic stereotypes, nor is it narcissistic arrogance to insist that you have some internal understanding of what it is to be/think like the opposite sex. Not at all. 🙄

Eta- sexed features exist. Fact. Trans people alter their features to attempt to resemble the opposite sex all the time. Another fact.

Claiming that despite being a trans person you are against thr concept of gender and don’t reinforce it- false and comical.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (22 children)

It isn’t based on stereotypes its based off a sex trait group orientation instinct. Maybe.

It isn't like anything to be the “opposite sex” the term is defined by the experiences of the people existing not some essentialistic conception of “female” thought/experience, quit arguing against someone else’s argument.

I probably reinforce gender less than you do. I mean we know that you believe that there exist “male” and “female” appearances so thats pretty gender normative by itself.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Lmao

You’re saying you identify as the opposite sex/gender based on group orientation that the opposite gender don’t even fit into? And that you would never have even been orientated into, because you weren’t part of the group the instinct applied to?

Women don’t all behave in the same way, we don’t all like or believe or want or do the same things- so what exactly is this group orientation instinct? Asking for examples of what behaviors, habits, and beliefs all women share that TW share as well.

And how do you account for the women and girls who don’t follow that group instinct but know they are women?

Im not talking about mentality or presentation when I say «female » appearance. I’m talking about actual sexed features that trans people often attempt to mimic on their own bodies. Whether you like it or not, sexed features are easily and even unintentionally recognized all the time, and it’s one of the reasons a lot of trans people wish to pass, so idk how you think that’s not gender normative lmao

As far as who reinforces gender more... well I can’t say for sure, but I know one of us (presumably) changed their name and drastically altered their body to appear to be the opposite sex so that despite being a male, they could attempt to live « as a woman », that’s not even getting into the things that person argues in their comments. The other... didn’t, they just grew up to be a woman because they are female and did what they wanted, regardless of whatever group orientation instinct was apparently embedded in them. I’ll leave it up to others to decide which of us is reinforcing gender.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (16 children)

How about you not talk about my appearance and instead stick to criticizing my ideas.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Your appearance is my point. It’s not said to attack you, it’s exactly what I’ve been saying this whole time. You claim to be critical of gender and that what I’m saying is wrong and sexist etc- but your very own transition is exactly my point. You altered your body and your life drastically to appear to be a woman in society, that doesn’t make you gnc, it just means you conformed in the extreme. You changed everything you could about yourself for gender’s sake. You just don’t see it.

You’re ideas are sexist and lack logic, but even what you think you’re saying- the fact of your transition invalidates your arguments and you make yourself the biggest flaw in your matrix theory.

At this point, I’d rather just stick to facts with you than try to dissect your ideas only to have them turn out to reinforce the very things you think you’re fighting against.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (5 children)

the fact of your transition invalidates your arguments

This sounds a lot like "yet you participate in society". People can feel pressured to do things to improve their own quality of life and safety while also being aware of why these things are wrong and trying to raise awareness (i.e. women pressured into wearing makeup for the sake of getting and maintaining a job while advocating against makeup).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

it’s hypocritical to be trans and attempt to be seen and treated as the opposite sex/gender, say you believe in gender identity, claim that males can move in a spectrum/matrix closer to whatever position females sit on that spectrum through transition, that trans people shouldn’t/don’t have to disclose their sex to potential partners (and that being male is medical history for TW), that all TW and women have some instinctual societal orientation (among other things they’ve said), then come here and act like they are anti gender. Everything this person says on this sub contradicts their claim to not “reify gender norms”. They have not ever said anything about transition being wrong or that they were pressured into anything- so I’m not sure what you’re mentioning that for.

In Heim’s case specifically, yes absolutely the fact of their transition coupled with the views they regularly spout here contradict what they are saying in this post about their views on gender. I’m not talking about trans people as a whole, I’m talking about this person in particular. They tried to call me out about what I said about passing- but they themselves go on to acknowledge that they “pass” and lie on legal documents because it’s safer for them- which... yeah... was my whole point about passing in the first place: that exactly what Heim is doing is the only way that trans people can successfully “change” genders, while explaining why that doesn’t mean they’ve actually changed gender. I didn’t say it was right or good or wrong or bad for trans people to conceal their sex in order to fit into society, all I said was that they do have to do that in order to successfully “change gender”. Heim confirmed that themselves, and then called me sexist for acknowledging what I see in society, as if it’s my rule and not something I observed. I stand by what I said.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (3 children)

Everything this person says on this sub contradicts their claim to not “reify gender norms”.

Which is the whole point. If their views contradict each other, that's the real problem.

I’m not talking about trans people as a whole, I’m talking about this person in particular.

So it's just irrelevant personal drama with a single individual and not something indicative of emulated widespread problematic behaviour?

Also:

They have not ever said anything about transition being wrong or that they were pressured into anything

they themselves go on to acknowledge that they “pass” and lie on legal documents because it’s safer for them-

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao idk what your deal with me is but it’s really weird. I think it’s odd that you start your response by saying that my point is the whole point but still feel the need to try to complain about my comment. Once again, you insert yourself into a thread that has nothing to do with you to make petty complaints.

  • no it’s not a personal drama between me and heim, it was me making my point to them about what they tried to call me out on, doesn’t mean it can’t apply to other trans people, means I was talking to this specific one and pointing out that their actions and many of their comments contradict what they were claiming on this post and make them guilty of what they were accusing me of.

And lastly- saying that lying on legal documents and passing is safer doesn’t mean that they have said anything is wrong with transition or were pressured into it- this person clearly believes they are a woman, they argue it constantly, are willing to create a whole sex matrix to make it so, and has made numerous comments claiming that TW are women- this is not someone who passes/stealths solely out of safety, and it’s ridiculous to try to imply they are just because you have some weird need to try to call me out whenever you don’t like my wording.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

My appearance is not a statement to me being a woman its just a way that I feel comfortable looking. I don’t want anyone assuming my gender based off of my appearance because then that means that someone else is probably having that same standard used against them to their detriment. I am a gender abolitionist and the only reason that I put an “F” on my drivers license was so that I could better maneuver in this cis supremacist society of yours. I have zero interest in reifying gender norms so don’t accuse me of such.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I have zero interest in reifying gender norms

Then why you do and do it to a such extreme? And what about other trans people, organizations and political parties, who are promoting those norms?

"Cis supremacist society" is trying to get away from gender norms and stereotypes since 80s, slowly but surely were going to more and more accepting gender nonconformity, until transgender movement appeared and started claiming that gender nonconforming people are in reality just of the opposite sex or non-binary, that boxes of genders are very rigid, so you need to fit them, and if you don't - you are the opposite sex or non-binary.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Noe of this is true. Trans people aren't turning gnc people trans, and were not insisting on strict gender roles for trans people to follow either.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So you reify gender norms in real life but preach against it (sometimes- seems like your matrix thing is constructed to allow transwomen to be women on the matrix but... okay) online.

So fine, you publicly present as woman because it’s safer- sure, does that mean here online we can call you he/him, man, male, that you can acknowledge -online only, of course- that transwomen aren’t women? That gender identity isn’t real? Because if you can’t do those things... then guess what you’re reaffirming? (Hint- gender)

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (4 children)

Its not reifying gender to use she/her pronouns, to refer to oneself as female/a women, and to say that trans women are women.

You have misunderstood the sex matrix; trans women aren’t women on the sex matrix, because there isn’t a “woman” section on the sex matrix.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 10 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Have you drawn that matrix yet, by the way?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

LMFAO

it is absolutely supporting gender to be a male and demand female pronouns, claim to be female and call yourself a woman.

I knew you’d say exactly this, you never let me down.

Just figured some of the gc people still reading this post could use the laugh.

This conversation can end here, nothing more will come of it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Its not reifying gender to use she/her pronouns, to refer to oneself as female/a women, and to say that trans women are women.

Calling a male she/her and female/a woman and saying TWAW is the epitome of "gender." It's also sexist, misogynistic, male supremacist, colonialist and indicative of male arrogance at its height.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I probably reinforce gender less than you do.

Your posts, and posting history, give the exact opposite impression, LOL. They are replete with, and reflective of, the sexist sex stereotypes called "gender," in fact. And they make you come off as "typically male" as well as male supremacist.

Your chief aim here seems to be to "reinforce gender" by trying to get everyone else to agree with you that the regressive, sexist, misogynistic sex stereotypes you hold dear are both "instinctual" and universal in all humans (and some other primates too).

Your secondary aim here seems to be to make people think you are an authority on the issues under discussion.

I don't think you're making much progress in achieving either aim.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

This has nothing to do with stereotypes and I never claimed to be an expert.

Also calling me “male” is both bad form, and stereotyping of people who actually identify as males.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why is it "bad form" to name someone's sex. Male isn't something anyone can identify into or out of. It's just a basic fact of life, like female is. Also, male is not confined to "people." Millions of other animals as well as plant species are male or female too.

[–]adungitit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the term is defined by the experiences of the people existing not some essentialistic conception of “female” thought/experience

I can interpret your comment in two ways:

  1. "The experiences of people existing (as a certain sex)", which necessarily excludes trans people, since existing as the opposite sex is not only decidedly not a part of their experience, but is also something that is literally impossible for them to achieve. We can force an artificial hormonal imbalance in male and female people, but that has little to do with a person actually being a certain sex because they, you know, are. The experiences of trans people are the experiences of people obsessed with becoming something they are objectively not to the point of undergoing an unnecessary and invasive procedure on their bodies and spending a lifetime of drugs that are not medically needed, and this is both biologically and experience-wise incomparable with men and women who just happen to exist as a certain sex regardless of how they feel or what they do about it.

  2. Said "experiences" are actually based in gender roles and/or brainsex, so we come back to the usual ladybrains and the patriarchal experiences that the sexes are subjected to being treated as more important and real than the neutral reality of sex itself. Instead of the goal being to end the corrupt system saddling the sexes with these ideas of what they should be doing and how they should be acting, the goal instead seems to be to use the corrupt system to define the sexes themselves and turn it all into one big game of roleplaying, with the liberal "I chose it!" disclaimers being used to soothe everyone's conscience when they take issue with the inherent unfairness of the system.