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[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

WTF? LOL. I said nothing of the sort. I pointed out that

young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do.

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

You really seem unable to see beyond your own personal experience and to be wholly incapable of having empathy for any other human being. Talk about solipsism. Sheesh.

I've used the men's restroom many times, and most men didn't care.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (26 children)

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

I never asked men. Most don't seem to care, some point out I'm in the men's room, to which I respond I don't care. A few objected, and I remind them they are the ones who started talking to me. I don't care what men think.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

But it's not just about the other parties present having to see - or ignore - adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's also about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Young males are just as susceptible to feeling bodily shame as females are. And most of them really worry about others judging their bodies, including or especially their dicks, and finding them lacking and laughing at them. Already, not enough consideration is given in our culture to the feelings of shame & inadequacy that many young males have about their male bodies especially as they start developing secondary sex characteristics. In fact, not giving enough credence to these feelings in young males is one of the reasons why so many boys & young men are developing "gender dysphoria," fantasies about changing sex, autogynephilia and other paraphilias, eating disorders, sick obsessions and other maladaptive coping behaviors.

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind. But you seem to relish the idea not just of removing girls' and women's safety, privacy, dignity, boundaries and peace of mind, but of creating a world where boys at vulnerable stages in their physical and psychological development will be robbed of their privacy, dignity and peace of mind as well.

I never asked men... I don't care what men think.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (24 children)

But it's not about the other parties present ignoring adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Then change in a stall.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind.

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then change in a stall.

But we're specifically talking about open change rooms. Your "solution" is akin to the Queen of France's response when she heard that millions of French peasants were starving due to lack of bread: let them eat cake.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

Total non sequitur, LOL. My point was that most change rooms in the real world at the present time are large communal spaces that do not have stalls for everyone (or anyone), and due to space & budget constraints, that's likely to remain the case. And you come back with: Many of us fight for mixed-sex spaces. Huh?

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Excellent illustration of the fact that you have no clue about how societies actually work. Anti-discrimination laws are legal instruments that IRL function as tools of last resort. The reason most people in democratic, plural societies try to treat others decently, humanely and fairly isn't because anti-discrimination laws are on the books, and we're afraid of getting sued or hauled before a human rights tribunal. It's because of the values and rules we were raised with. It's because moral development is a key part of child development, and people raised in plural societies that aim to be democratic and fair are generally taught growing up that a) other people are separate to us; b) other people often feel differently about the same exact situation than we ourselves do; c) other people have rights just as much as we ourselves do, our own rights do not come before the rights of others; d) the rights of different individuals and groups often clash and conflict; and d) everyone's different views and rights need to be taken into account - and accommodated - in designing and running public provisions, institutions and programs.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

Bold as it may be, what I've said is not a baseless assumption. Far from it, in fact. I've arrived at a conclusion based on observation of the evidence you've provided in your own very clear statements individually and in totality - evidence everyone who reads your posts can see.

It's not your opposition to sex-segregated spaces that make you come across as though you only think about yourself and you place you and your feelings above everyone else. It's the solipsism, callousness towards others and the downright cruelty you've repeatedly displayed - and seemingly proudly too.

BTW, some of us here who disagree with you are also for the addition of mixed-sex spaces, and/or of more unisex spaces such as single stall toilets. Some of us here actually have fought in the trenches for such. I've personally been involved in campaigning for wheelchair accessible toilets (single use ones as well as enlarged stalls with bars in communal loos) and for female-only spaces in workplaces where lactating mothers can express breastmilk in dignity and hygienically, and dedicated refrigerators where we can safely store it until the end of the work shift too.

If you were arguing for additional mixed-sex communal spaces and/or additional unisex single-user spaces, many here would back you. But you're not advocating that new spaces & provisions be added to what already exists - you want to remove the existing single-sex spaces that work so well for so many, and which previous generations of women fought for. Moreover, when others point out that removing single-sex spaces will discomfort, distress and endanger large swathes of the population, particularly the female 51%, you a purported "feminist" double down and say, in effect, tough shit.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But we're specifically talking about open change rooms. Your "solution" is akin to the Queen of France's response when she heard that millions of French peasants were starving due to lack of bread: let them eat cake.

applauds

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You’re literally telling women to go change in a stall so we don’t have to look at teenagers erections lmao.

You’re absolutely putting the feelings of others way below yours and the feelings of hypothetical men. If you can’t see that, you’re being deliberately obtuse to a degree that boggles the mind.

You are very clearly unwilling or incapable of showing empathy for women. Dismissing women’s feelings and telling them to leave their space and change in the little box (that doesn’t accommodate a wheelchair or a walking frame, fuck you disabled women) so boys don’t get embarrassed over the women in the women’s changing room seeing his accidental boner. You could save yourself time and just tell us all to go fuck ourselves and obey men instead of couching that exact idea in all the caping for gender.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (20 children)

I'm telling the teenager to go change in a stall.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Why can’t he change in a stall in the men’s room? Why does he need to be in the ladies room if he’s so embarrassed and aroused by seeing females in sports bras?

It’s like you’re deliberately making a situation with less dignity for others because you personally don’t feel undignified in the situations you describe.

Try remembering that your standards aren’t applicable to others and that other people have feelings and thoughts you don’t and that they don’t need to change them to match yours.

You were very clearly stating the women should change in the stall. Like..read back what was written before you responded ‘just change in a stall’

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (18 children)

I meant the teenage boy should change in the stall. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

And I’m saying you are wrong and the teenage boy should not be in the same space as women in the first place.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (16 children)

I guess we disagree. I have and will continue to use men's bathrooms and locker rooms.