QT: Do you understand why women need single sex spaces?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (42 children)

What difference does it make if the strangers are male or female? You still don't know them, their intentions, etc.

[–]AlexisK 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Again, this answer is so bizzare. Have you been living on planet Earth at all? This looks like either you are ignorant and dishonest, or you are very privileged middle/high-middle class woman from a good neighbourhood.

Maybe because of criminal statistics? Of how patriarchy works? Of how males are much stronger physically and faster than females on average? Because if stranger male is entering safe zone - this means they are most likely have vile intent, because good males would prefer to not create any discomfort for women? And that 85% of violent crimes are done by males, and of them 96-97% violent crimes against females are done by males? That 99+% of all rapists are males and almost 100% of all rapes against women are done by males? And that almost all cases of filming are done by males?

While if stranger is female - most likely you have similar strenght, similar running speed, and that most likely that female have no vile intent at all? And even if in very rare case when you get raped by another female - you can't get pregnant? And seems you don't know why it is when dark at night you are returning from a job if you hear female steps it is more like a relief, while hearing male footsteps will make you feel fear?

That question "what difference" is so bizzare, and said from such a big privilege position.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

And that 85% of violent crimes are done by males, and of them 96-97% violent crimes against females are done by males? That 99+% of all rapists are males and almost 100% of all rapes against women are done by males?

This is wrong.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wo.pdf

While if stranger is female - most likely you have similar strenght, similar running speed, and that most likely that female have no vile intent at all?

In freshman year of high school I was groped by cis girls in the locker room. They were suspended, but they still were allowed to return to the locker room. No one ever forced them to change in the boys locker room and I had to deal with the fact they could harass me again, Don't assume that females most likely don't have vile intentions at all. That is simply not true.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your link confirms that 85% of violent crimes are committed by males and that 99% of all rapes are committed by males.

The only thing I can think you'd be referring to is where it says 3/4 of victims of female violence are female, but taking into account the rate of male vs female perpetrators, males still commit almost all violence against women.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Re your personal anecdote:

  1. Im sorry that happened to you. That doesn’t disprove the fact that the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment/assault is perpetrated by males against females. We never said that no female would ever harm another female, we are saying that that is significantly less likely to occur. Even a female who harms other females is at risk of harm from a male.

  2. There’s a reason the school didn’t force the girls who harmed you to use the boys room. It has a lot to do with the first thing I said.

  3. If your point was to say that females are violent too, that still isn’t a good argument for unisex spaces. That just sounds like you’re pushing to increase our risk of harm, since apparently we have to watch out for other females and now males, instead of only be worried about potential female assailants, whom we could reasonably stand a chance against.

[–]AlexisK 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

And that link confirmed what I've said.

In freshman year of high school I was groped by cis girls in the locker room.

That's why you want much-much more girls to be groped by males now because very rare cause of female groping other female happened with you?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why are you comparing being raped by a man with being groped by a woman? Why do you have different standarts for men who assault and women who assault?

She almost made you pregnant and was strongly overpowering you, was much taller and bigger?

This is wrong.

Your own link saying that it is not wrong.

3/4 offenses are simple offenses

So just few hits or quarrel. Your link shows women even less violent than I thought.

Self-reported

I would not trust men self-reporting about women attacking them, in the study about domestic violence, almost 33% of self-reported cases of domestic violence of women against men were "she said no" or "she refused to have sex" or "she was screaming at me as she tried to clean all house and I just wanted to watch football". Which are, obviously, not domestic violence, but are seen by those men as one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like so many people have addressed this same thing with you. If it doesn’t matter, what is the issue with having a female space and a male space, and keeping them separated by sex? If it doesn’t matter to you, but does matter to some females, why not respect the boundaries of the females that have boundaries they don’t want crossed?

I don’t understand how you can tell females it doesn’t matter but you seem to think it matters that TW be allowed to access female spaces? If it doesn’t matter to you that females can’t have their own spaces, why does it matter to you that TW have access to female spaces?

Why are you so concerned with what TW want, but able to disregard female boundaries?

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

But it's not just strangers we're talking about here. It's also family members, school classmates, work colleagues, neighbors...

The fact is, most communal change rooms are open-plan - and due to space constraints, that's how they most likely will always stay. Which means you're arguing that all families who go to a swimming pool or water park together should have to change in & out of their bathing suits with one another regardless of their different ages & sex. In other words, MA moms, teenage daughters & senior citizen grannies should have to be naked in front of MA dads, adolescent & teen boys, & elderly grandpas - and vice versa. As though in families, bodily privacy & sex boundaries should not be a thing.

Leaving aside female people entirely, as you clearly don't care about the vast majority of girls & women, the policy you advocate would be particularly hard on a segment of the sex you DO care about, namely pubescent & teen boys. Much to their embarrassment, males of that age get spontaneous erections and often find their dicks get stiff & stand up visibly at the slightest stimuli - including seeing their mums & grannies & sisters in their knickers, or sometimes just being in close physical proximity to their female relatives when fully dressed. The young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do. Perhaps if you'd raised some boys you'd know that.

You're also saying that co-workers & classmates of the opposite sex should be forced to share toilets, change rooms & showers in schools and workplace settings. Where does that leave all the girls & women who want a measure of privacy when dealing with intimate bodily matters specific to the female sex like menstruation, flooding due to menopause & fibroids, pregnancy, breast leakage & miscarriages - many of which happen outside the home? Can't you see that many girls & women would feel uncomfortable washing blood off their hands & clothing, or washing out moon cups, with their male workmates & classmates looking on? Many girls & women have had instances where we've had to remove our skirts or trousers to wash blood off them at the sinks in communal loos, activities that can't be done in the stall. Similarly, a majority of breastfeeding women who work outside the home have had occasion to need to remove their tops to remove splotches of leaked breast milk, which again can only be done at the sinks rather than in the stalls. Then again, perhaps you think girls & women should have wash our hands & clothing off & rinse our moon cups by dunking them in the toilet bowls.

And where does your policy leave all the boys & men who feel bashful about taking a crap with their female work colleagues & classmates in the room? And all the boys & men who like to nip into the loo during the day for a stress-relieving wank? Don't you think the policy you advocate would be a discomfiting imposition on them, their privacy, bodily freedoms & peace of mind too?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This was so awkward and uncomfortable to read, but that’s exactly why it’s such a good point! Even GB’s all important males could feel uncomfortable.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If it's awkward & uncomfortable to read, think of how awkward & uncomfortable it is to actually be in these situations! For everyone concerned. Except, that is, for people like GB & the small segment of the male sex she's catering to.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. Awkward and uncomfortable because it's exactly what goes on daily in bathrooms, unlike the highly edited and mythical "we just wanna pee" bathrooms of trans rights propaganda.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (30 children)

The fact is, most communal change rooms are open-plan - and due to space constraints, that's how they most likely will always stay. Which means you're arguing that all families who go to a swimming pool or water park together should have to change in & out of their bathing suits with one another regardless of their different ages & sex. In other words, MA moms, teenage daughters & senior citizen grannies should have to be naked in front of MA dads, adolescent & teen boys, & elderly grandpas - and vice versa. As though in families, bodily privacy & sex boundaries should not be a thing.

Then maybe we should have separate facilities based on age as well. Old women go here, young women go here. MA women go here.

Leaving aside female people entirely, as you clearly don't care about the vast majority of girls & women, the policy you advocate would be particularly hard on a segment of the sex you DO care about, namely pubescent & teen boys. Much to their embarrassment, males of that age get spontaneous erections and often find their dicks get stiff & stand up visibly at the slightest stimuli - including seeing their mums & grannies & sisters in their knickers, or sometimes just being in close physical proximity to their female relatives when fully dressed. The young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do. Perhaps if you'd raised some boys you'd know that.

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

And where does your policy leave all the boys & men who feel bashful about taking a crap with their female work colleagues & classmates in the room? And all the boys & men who like to nip into the loo during the day for a stress-relieving wank? Don't you think the policy you advocate would be a discomfiting imposition on them, their privacy, bodily freedoms & peace of mind too?

I've used the men's restroom many times, and most men didn't care.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

WTF? LOL. I said nothing of the sort. I pointed out that

young males in these situations might be the sweetest, kindest boys in the world, with all the best intentions - but their bodies are still gonna do what the bodies of boys that age tend to do.

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

You really seem unable to see beyond your own personal experience and to be wholly incapable of having empathy for any other human being. Talk about solipsism. Sheesh.

I've used the men's restroom many times, and most men didn't care.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (26 children)

Adolescent boys who get spontaneous erections and find themselves aroused at awkward moments by all sorts of stimuli adults of other ages might not find erotic are not "harassing" women.

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

So why can't the "transwomen" you are so concerned about do the same?

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

Also, did you and do you customarily ask the men you encounter in men's restrooms how they feel about your presence there? Or do you just assume that if it's OK with you, then it must be OK with every one of them?

I never asked men. Most don't seem to care, some point out I'm in the men's room, to which I respond I don't care. A few objected, and I remind them they are the ones who started talking to me. I don't care what men think.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Is that a problem? You can always ignore an erection.

But it's not just about the other parties present having to see - or ignore - adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's also about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Young males are just as susceptible to feeling bodily shame as females are. And most of them really worry about others judging their bodies, including or especially their dicks, and finding them lacking and laughing at them. Already, not enough consideration is given in our culture to the feelings of shame & inadequacy that many young males have about their male bodies especially as they start developing secondary sex characteristics. In fact, not giving enough credence to these feelings in young males is one of the reasons why so many boys & young men are developing "gender dysphoria," fantasies about changing sex, autogynephilia and other paraphilias, eating disorders, sick obsessions and other maladaptive coping behaviors.

I believe all restrooms and changing facilities should be gender neutral with stalls.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind. But you seem to relish the idea not just of removing girls' and women's safety, privacy, dignity, boundaries and peace of mind, but of creating a world where boys at vulnerable stages in their physical and psychological development will be robbed of their privacy, dignity and peace of mind as well.

I never asked men... I don't care what men think.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (24 children)

But it's not about the other parties present ignoring adolescent boys' spontaneous erections, it's about the embarrassment that they cause the boys themselves. Pubescent boys find the unpredictable behavior of their penises mortifying enough in any event - why add to their distress by creating situations where their unwanted, embarrassing boners are naked & in full view of their female relatives, teachers, neighbors, classmates, etc?

Then change in a stall.

We know this. But that's pie in the sky. It's not gonna happen. The rest of us here are having a convo about the real world in the present time.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

A main goal of a civilized society should be to allow everyone regardless of age, sex, race, physical ability, cultural heritage, belief, religious faith, background etc to participate in society and move through the public world outside the home with a sense of dignity, bodily privacy and peace of mind.

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Of course you didn't ask. Coz you seem not to give a shit about anyone but yourself and the one small, select group whom you place above everyone else. Sorry, but you come across as utterly bereft of the qualities of both brain and heart that are necessary to devise public policies that are fair and humane to all the diverse parties involved.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then change in a stall.

But we're specifically talking about open change rooms. Your "solution" is akin to the Queen of France's response when she heard that millions of French peasants were starving due to lack of bread: let them eat cake.

But there are many of us who fight for gender neutral spaces.

Total non sequitur, LOL. My point was that most change rooms in the real world at the present time are large communal spaces that do not have stalls for everyone (or anyone), and due to space & budget constraints, that's likely to remain the case. And you come back with: Many of us fight for mixed-sex spaces. Huh?

This is exactly why we have discrimination laws.

Excellent illustration of the fact that you have no clue about how societies actually work. Anti-discrimination laws are legal instruments that IRL function as tools of last resort. The reason most people in democratic, plural societies try to treat others decently, humanely and fairly isn't because anti-discrimination laws are on the books, and we're afraid of getting sued or hauled before a human rights tribunal. It's because of the values and rules we were raised with. It's because moral development is a key part of child development, and people raised in plural societies that aim to be democratic and fair are generally taught growing up that a) other people are separate to us; b) other people often feel differently about the same exact situation than we ourselves do; c) other people have rights just as much as we ourselves do, our own rights do not come before the rights of others; d) the rights of different individuals and groups often clash and conflict; and d) everyone's different views and rights need to be taken into account - and accommodated - in designing and running public provisions, institutions and programs.

Just because I am against sex-segregated spaces doesn't mean I only think about myself above everyone else. That's a bold assumption to make.

Bold as it may be, what I've said is not a baseless assumption. Far from it, in fact. I've arrived at a conclusion based on observation of the evidence you've provided in your own very clear statements individually and in totality - evidence everyone who reads your posts can see.

It's not your opposition to sex-segregated spaces that make you come across as though you only think about yourself and you place you and your feelings above everyone else. It's the solipsism, callousness towards others and the downright cruelty you've repeatedly displayed - and seemingly proudly too.

BTW, some of us here who disagree with you are also for the addition of mixed-sex spaces, and/or of more unisex spaces such as single stall toilets. Some of us here actually have fought in the trenches for such. I've personally been involved in campaigning for wheelchair accessible toilets (single use ones as well as enlarged stalls with bars in communal loos) and for female-only spaces in workplaces where lactating mothers can express breastmilk in dignity and hygienically, and dedicated refrigerators where we can safely store it until the end of the work shift too.

If you were arguing for additional mixed-sex communal spaces and/or additional unisex single-user spaces, many here would back you. But you're not advocating that new spaces & provisions be added to what already exists - you want to remove the existing single-sex spaces that work so well for so many, and which previous generations of women fought for. Moreover, when others point out that removing single-sex spaces will discomfort, distress and endanger large swathes of the population, particularly the female 51%, you a purported "feminist" double down and say, in effect, tough shit.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But we're specifically talking about open change rooms. Your "solution" is akin to the Queen of France's response when she heard that millions of French peasants were starving due to lack of bread: let them eat cake.

applauds

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You’re literally telling women to go change in a stall so we don’t have to look at teenagers erections lmao.

You’re absolutely putting the feelings of others way below yours and the feelings of hypothetical men. If you can’t see that, you’re being deliberately obtuse to a degree that boggles the mind.

You are very clearly unwilling or incapable of showing empathy for women. Dismissing women’s feelings and telling them to leave their space and change in the little box (that doesn’t accommodate a wheelchair or a walking frame, fuck you disabled women) so boys don’t get embarrassed over the women in the women’s changing room seeing his accidental boner. You could save yourself time and just tell us all to go fuck ourselves and obey men instead of couching that exact idea in all the caping for gender.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (20 children)

I'm telling the teenager to go change in a stall.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Why can’t he change in a stall in the men’s room? Why does he need to be in the ladies room if he’s so embarrassed and aroused by seeing females in sports bras?

It’s like you’re deliberately making a situation with less dignity for others because you personally don’t feel undignified in the situations you describe.

Try remembering that your standards aren’t applicable to others and that other people have feelings and thoughts you don’t and that they don’t need to change them to match yours.

You were very clearly stating the women should change in the stall. Like..read back what was written before you responded ‘just change in a stall’

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then maybe we should have separate facilities based on age as well. Old women go here, young women go here. MA women go here.

This makes no sense whatsoever. The issue here isn't that old women might be preyed upon by MA women or teen girls, or that old women will perv on little girls. The issue is that humans come in two sexes, not that within each sex there are people of widely varying ages.

Also, your suggestion of segregation by age here ignores that for all sorts of practical reasons, people of one age group often rely on people of another age group to help them in changing & toileting, from dressing/undressing them to wiping asses to simply lending a helping hand.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You're saying "boys will just be boys" and are destined to harass women no matter what.

Gotta love it when liberals argue that protections of women from male violence are misandrist. Men harrassing and assaulting women is not the fault of women, nor is it up to women to fix men being fucked up and misogynistic. It's up to MEN to get their act together and stop preying on women in such high numbers that women need spaces free of them just to lead a semblance of a normal public life (which is the entire reason why feminists advocated for these spaces in the first place). Women's spaces are not the reason why men prey on women. It is absolutely fucked up to blame women and their spaces which exist as protection from male violence for the continuation of said male violence. Stripping protections of vulnerable groups because that's supposed to teach men not to assault women isn't going to make men not assault women. Even if your twisted misogynistic logic made sense, we literally have centuries of history where women lacked any spaces and protections, and guess which half of humanity specifically abused that to the point of having institutionalised ownership and rape of women, and guess which one didn't?