Ok, it's time to update the rules

submitted by grixitperson[M] from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

The rules say we posters on this sub must eschew terms like TIM & TIF and instead use

"(trans) natal male" or "(trans) natal female" when discussing issues relevant to one's assigned sex at birth.

Which has always made me feel very unwelcome, on tenterhooks and hesitant to post here.

Fact is, the terms "natal male," "natal female," "AFAB" & "AMAB" don't just appropriate the experience of some people with DSDs in previous eras, they reflect total ignorance of how common prenatal testing is in our age. These acronyms & the thinking behind them erase the experience of billions of women who've learnt the sex of their fetuses long before their pregnancies resulted in live births, miscarriage or stillbirth. And it erases the experience of all the girls & women forced into sex-selective abortions in the first or second trimester.

Whenever I see "natal male, "natal female," "AFAB" & "AMAB" I flash back to the unpleasant, anxiety-producing experience of having CVS 30 years ago, to the trauma of suffering a miscarriage of a fetus whose sex was known - and to the experiences of my sisters and friends who had their own miscarriages and stillbirths of fetuses whose sex was already known or was determined in post-mortem testing.

The terms "natal male," "natal female," "AFAB" and "AMAB" seem to suggest that the only persons who count during pregnancy, childbirth and the neonatal period are the offspring. The women who've conceived, gestated and risked their lives to give birth seem not to matter at all. To the "natal male/female" & "AFAB/AMAB" crowd, the women from whose bodies they issued seem to be totally invisible.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

IMO not using TiM or TiF and instead using trans natal whatever, is a distinction without a difference. I doubt understand how it’s supposed to be a concession to QT

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It was acceptable to qt on Reddit, and I haven’t seen any comments from qt about what rules they want specifically. I don’t think we’d know what terms qt is open to us using unless qt chimes in and we discuss from there.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

It was discussed on the old site briefly. It didn’t seem like many QT people thought it was a compromise at the time either. I think maybe it was something one of the Mods suggested when the old sub was created or something? It was a while ago.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Idk I was only there for about 8-10 months before it got shit down, and I didn’t I wow what term to use so I asked and I was told that qt said to use natal female/male. I don’t like the term, so I never used it, I just always use transwoman/transman or male/female

But if we have need of another option, qt would have to speak up about what works for them otherwise all gc can do is guess. I’m not fully understanding why we need terms besides transwoman/transman, male/female, man/woman? But if others need other terms we still need qt to speak up so we can figure out what terms to use

Eta- apparently my phone autocorrects “shut” to “shit”

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

Yeah I don’t see a point to such terms either. If calling trans women male is allowed then just use that, calling us trans natal male or even TiM seems like extra steps with no real benefit to QT. Maybe the transmedicalists or GC friendly trans people feel differently, idk.

I remember you from the old sub, you told me the sex spectrum was a silly idea there as well if I’m not mistaken.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

It’s very likely that I did, I stand by that statement lol

I have a lot of reasons why I think it’s silly, but I don’t think this is the post for that

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Of course

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I never liked the trans natal male or female thing to be honest. I've only used it because it was recommended in the rules and I wanted to make clear to what sex I was talking about.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

It just seems like extra steps that don’t really benefit either side.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, I can see it now, but I joined the sub about 2 months ago and I though QT have accepted it as a compromise.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe some do, but I don’t understand why. Perhaps the transmedicalists like it?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think trans male or trans female can work somewhat. I used to say “trans male” in my flair, but many people would think I meant I was a transman. Natal can make it clear it’s at birth for people who think sex can change, but it’s always sort incorrect for how most of us see it. I’d love to hear a term that everyone would like, but I’m not sure if it exists.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to say “trans male” in my flair, but many people would think I meant I was a transman.

That is the kind of confusion I wanted to avoid by using "natal" even if it sounds pretty awkward to me. I'm afraid I don't know what term could satisfy everyone, either.