Both: What do you think of the new Super Straight movement?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

Literally none of that is contravened by what I said. In fact I said explicitly it isn’t transphobic to just not be attracted to trans people.

By framing it as a different and superior sexuality, you are essentially saying someone is lesser for being attracted to trans people. It’s such deep animus that you lower others by mere association with us. And that’s on top of the audacity that some are now claiming membership in the lgbt community by virtue of being “super straight”. You could have just said you are straight and not attracted to trans people but instead you create a hierarchy that puts trans people so low that you devalue people merely for being accepting.

[–]JollyPurple 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Look at it this way. There are now TWO types of sexualities. Neither is more better or superior to the other, just different.

  1. Genderality - sexual attraction based on which socially constructed gender created by patriarchy your partner and you identify with.

  2. Sexuality- sexual attraction based on the other person's sex.

And then within each group are subgroups.

Genderality - socially constructed gender based attraction.

  • straight - attraction based on one member of the couple having masculine cis gender identity and the other a feminine cis gender identity

  • gay - both members of the couple have a masculine socially constructed gender identity

  • lesbian - both members of the couple have a feminine socially constructed gender identity

  • bi - sexual attraction to both masculine and feminine socially constructed gender identities

  • pan - attraction to ALL socially constructed gender identities.

Sexuality - sex-based attraction

  • superstraight- attraction to a person of the opposite SEX

  • supergay - same-sex attraction for males (SEX)

  • superlesbian - same-sex attraction for females (SEX)

  • superbi - sexual attraction to both SEXes

There is no hierarchy here at all.

Sexual attraction by nature is exclusive. These categories helps create clarity and simplicity when informing others. As the transgender community ALWAYS says, language evolves, things change meaning, and new words are created to change with society's changing perspectives. And society felt the need to create a distinction between genderality and sexuality. Which probably occurred, because like religion, not everyone believes in the same thing. Most people don't believe in biological essentialism and innate gender ideology like the transgender community does. You shouldn't force someone to convert to a religion just because you believe in it, and gender identity ideology is the same way.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I’m tired of this topic but there is a hierarchy present and intended in the use of superstraight and accusing trans people of biological essentialism is absolutely ridiculous.

[–]JollyPurple 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Transgender ideology IS biological essentialism. Gender IS biological essentialism.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095507973

Where is the hierarchy? You still can't point it out. People having a different sexuality than you doesn't make them better or worse. You are claiming there's a hierarchy simply because people have a sexuality different than you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Physical biology being less important than identity is biological essentialism? You are talking absolute nonsense.

They chose “super” to imply a hierarchy, that they are not just different than straight people but MORE straight which is at minimum disrespectful of the people who they are insulting by saying they are.

[–]JollyPurple 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

They didn't do it for a hierarchy and you know it. The confusion is the transgender community's fault.

The trans community changed the meaning of words without informing the public. They changed men and women from SEX-based definitions of male and female humans into gender identities based on patriarchy's created gender norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy.

Because they changed the meaning of men and women, it also changed the meaning of sexualities into genderalities. But again, the general public isn't really aware of these changes. Most people don't know. They still assume sexuality is based on, SEX and not the socially constructed gender someone identifies with.

So when they said super, like really straight, they are saying to mean the OLD ORIGINAL meaning of straight with is sexual attraction based on sex NOT gender.

Most people think women and men are male and female humans, not some abstract thought in a person's head. They were saying "super" as a way to get the point accross that their sexuality isn't loose or based on an idea/essence/feeling/abstract thought/social construction of what a woman is, they are saying is based on the REALITY of what a woman is, which is an adult female human. Not on whether or not a person has a "inner woman feeling" or "interal woman personality" or "pink lady brains" or "feminine personality" or "lady essence" or anthing else like that.

That's literally all that means. Sex and gender are two different things. Saying one is NOT the other isn't invalidating the other. Because again, the are NOT the same thing. Someone can have a gender identity, that still doesn't change their sex.

If you use the words as they were created to be used you wouldn't run into these issues. Because your community appropriated man and woman to name gender identities, you WILL have to deal with the consequences of that when people STILL use them as they were originally created for.

If you want to stop the confusion then come up with your own names for the genders. The words that were created to name the socially constructed genders forced onto members of the male sex is masculinity, and for the female sex is femininity. If you said that transwomen are feminine, or have feminine gender identities, literally NO one would argue. Every radfem would agree with you.

But what your community wanted to do was muddy the water and appropriate and colonize words, change the meanings, then you all got angry when people used them the way your community doesn't want to.

If your community just sucked it up, and dealt with the fact that you can't just change the meanings of the words and have everyone on the planet just "go with it", we all would be much further along in this debate.

Because now, people are catching on to the appropriation, and many instead of fighting back to bring the meaning of words to what the ORIGINALLY meant, they decided to create new words to mean the same thing. Which is what the trans community should have done first.

What these supers are actually doing is the POLITE thing and letting you have the colonized and appropriate words, saying "you want them, you can have them then" and then making new words to replace the ones you STOLE.

Your community is just a bunch of whiny colonizers and appropriators getting mad and throwing a little hissy fits because people won't do what you want. People still need words to communicate, especially regarding one of the oldest things humans recognized in our existence, that of sex and male and female humans. You can't erase or change that no matter how hard you try. It's literally written in our DNA. And no matter how hard your community tries to erase it, there will ALWAYS be words, whether newly created or ancient, to explain and communicate the fact that male and female humans exist. The faster your community accepts that fact, the faster we can work on making sure both communities are protected from harm.

Physical biology being less important than identity is biological essentialism? You are talking absolute nonsense.

Believing in gender and thinking gender identities are innate is biological essentialism.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

You can’t honestly believe super wasn’t chosen to imply superiority and I’m tired of listening to y’all pretend that gender is based on behavior. The disingenuous shit is exhausting and I’m not going to play along and pretend you are arguing in good faith. Get a hobby.

[–]JollyPurple 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time. - World Health Organization

Gender identity is which gender a person bases their identity on/identifies with.

If you've come up with completely new meanings of the word gender, you need to tell people now. Otherwise we are going to keep using the meaning it was before. I mean seriously, the entire debate between 'the world vs the transgender community' almost always comes down to your community constantly changing the meaning of words. If you guys just sat down and listed and defined all your words and then STUCK to them we wouldn't keep having this issue.

Woman - adult female human

Trans community changes it to " a person who identifies with patriarchy's socially constructed gender forced onto members of the female sex"

The trans community says "transwomen are women." then gets mad when people debate that fact because they still use women as it was originally defined, adult female human.

In order to fix communication issues created by the trans community, another community creates new words to name their reality. They tell the trans community they can have the old words, like straight, gay, lesbian, bi, man, woman, but we are adding the word "super" in front of them so you know that we mean something different than you when we speak. "Transwomen are now women" because we let you have the word woman. But transwomen are not superwomen though, because our new word superwoman has a different definintion that the trans communities word "woman".

Then your community gets super pissed because "oh no, they can't just make up new words. They can't just use different words. They must use the words we appropriated and colonized and the meanings we changed them to. If you don't, you're an evil transphobic nazi. Stop making up words to communicate biological realities. It's a hate crime. NO NEW WORDS!! And you must completely ignore the fact that male and female humans exist. If you ever bring it up again, you are just outting yourself as a bigot that wants all trans people dead!! "

Either accept the fact that if you continue to appropriate and colonize words, change the meanings, and then do it OVER AND OVER again, people will continue to create new words to replace the ones you stole. So either make your debate based around the fact that you want to force people to use the words the way YOU want them to, or you make your debate about whether or not you think people should be allowed to make new words to name our reality.

Because it's not about being transgender or not anymore, it's about the reason WHY your community doesn't want people to create and use new words. Because those new words name realities you want to erased.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You are so hateful. It’s wild. What are you even doing in a debate space if you are accusing us of things like stealing words?

[–]JollyPurple 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you don't like what's being said, then your problem is with the actions of your community, not the person calling out the bad behavior. We weren't doing anything, the trans community was the one that came in FIRST, made the FIRST actions to take the words for their own use, change the meanings, and then demonize anyone that doesn't agree with the changes that no one outside of the transgender community wanted in the first place.

If you don't want to be called out for appropriating and colonizing the words an oppressed group of people use to name themselves, then give the words back. Make your own. And if you don't want to give them up, stop acting like people using the words' original definitions are bigots. Again male and female humans will exist no matter how bad your community wishes we didn't, no matter how bad your community wants to hide or erase it. So suck it up and either give us our words back, or let us make new ones.