GC: Are there specific alternative treatments to SRS and HRT that have proven effective for successfully treating the most severe forms of gender dysphoria or transsexualism?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

I’d say what tras refer to as “conversion therapy” but is actually... therapy. Mental illnesses are not easy to treat, trans people have to be willing to let themselves be treated, even if (maybe even especially if) it’s really hard for them. I can’t think of very many trans people that only have dysphoria. It seems like there’s almost always a host of other mental issues that need to be sorted out and dealt with, and I’ve always wondered what the outcome would be for most people who “transition” if the other mental health concerns are addressed and treated before dysphoria is.

Also, shitty as it is to say, most people with mental conditions have to learn to manage it. Like- it’s not easy, and I’m sure it gets incredibly difficult for many, but the reality is that most people with mental disorders/illnesses/whatever word it’s currently pc to use just have to figure out how to manage it. Altering the physical is not treatment- it’s a band aid. And I can’t think of any other treatment for mental illness that demands so much from other people, while allowing the patient to ignore reality. Transition feeds the mental issues, even if it alleviates the distress. That’s why I said what I said about trans people needing to be able to acknowledge that they aren’t really transitioning into anything significantly different. If you transition and people still call you a man or use male pronouns and that triggers you- have you really been treated? If you can’t be open about being trans even when you know it’s safe- have you really been treated? If you need to insist that you are in fact the opposite sex (man and woman are sexed terms- not gendered)- have you really been treated? If you need to cling to debunked pseudoscience- have you really been treated? If you transition and don’t pass and or you still aren’t satisfied with your body- have you really been treated? Transition at best helps alleviate distress over your body, but doesn’t seem to do much else unless you’re lucky enough to pass, and if you pass- there’s still all those questions I asked. Honestly the more I listen to and engage with trans people, it’s hard for me to see them as people who have truly been treated for any mental issues (obligatory not all trans- though honestly only peaking and one other person come to mind when I think of exceptions), it seems to me that for many, transition brings on a lot of other issues and reinforces the idea that they are a woman/man, which just isn’t true. It’s a faulty treatment at best that wasn’t even developed with your best interest in mind, and it seems like this narrative of “anything other than ‘mones and or surgery is just transphobic” is harmful to many dysphoric people, and means that more effective and healthy treatment is not being explored enough.

There’s a reason the suicide rates don’t drop post transition.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Truthfully, even if alternative treatments weren’t viewed as transphobic, the fact that dysphoric people know they can get these surgeries and hormones is in itself a barrier to alternative treatments. If you’re in distress and you already know you can snip and reconstruct and take cross sex hormones, and you tell yourself that you’ll be one of those rare trans people who can pass and effectively assimilate- would you be willing to go through the likely time consuming and arduous process of truly treating the mental issues that led you to want to transition? Or would you jump to what both alleviates the biggest symptom and theoretically gives you exactly what you want? I can’t say for sure because people vary and I don’t have dysphoria, but I feel like most people would jump to transition rather than deal with the alternative.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In post-USSR to get legal "sex reassigment" surgery and to change sex in documents, person need to visit psychiatrist for at least a year, must be at least half a year or a year on treatment - to know if person really want it and if they don't have other issues, and fully comit to it as well.

In my country because of that - transsexuals often just going abroad for surgeries instead (so it is always middle class or rich people), and not changing legal sex in documents. Transgenders are not even trying anything and bying medicine abroad, as here you can';t buy it without medical prescription, and to get one you need to go for a treatment and check you if you don't have a ton of other issues. Cross-sex hormonal therapy also believed to be stressful and that if there other issues over gender dysphoria - can lead to strenghtening those issues that can lead to suicide.

Most transsexuals are still mostly homosexual people with very strong internalized homophobia, it is still present, even after USSR practices of forced transitioning and propaganda that gay men were just women born in wrong bodies - had stopped.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I certainly would love to try any alternative treatment that cure my dysphoria better than SRS has. Since that was standard treatment and no therapy or medications or drugs or lifestyle changes worked and I was going to kill myself otherwise finally, I didn't really see another choice. If one had been available, I would have jumped on it instead. Some trans people really, really don't want to be trans and do anything not to be.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

How long where you in therapy that didn’t include discussing transition before you transitioned?

How long where you in therapy that focused on getting to the root of your dysphoria, and possibly (if applicable) addressing any other issues you may have had, before beginning transition?

What medications did you take, and what were they for?

If someone calls you a man or he/him how do you deal with it?

Were you ever gnc, like openly and freely, pre transition?

Do you genuinely believe that someone who has surgeries but is still obviously the sex they were born, or has complications with their surgery any less suicidal?

Not trying to prove any point, trying to understand what you experienced because it seems like any answer won’t be good enough for you

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

10 months

4 months

Olanzapine, Quetiapine, Effexor, Sertraline, Latuda, Lamotrigine, Clonazepam, Ativan, Lithium, Bupropion (all for panic and GAD, except Lithium for bipolar that was ruled out)

I feel strange and uncomfortable because it seems like they're talking to or about another person, like it's weird they don't see me

I was very openly, naturally gnc for my whole life before transition

Yes, I do. I no longer have suicidal ideation 2.5 years post op. Some people are less suicidal, some more, some no different.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

“some people are less suicidal, some more, some no different”

Suggest that transition is not in fact the only treatment or the most effective treatment. If 2/3 are either the same or worse off- that’s a huge flaw. Once again, this is why the other poster mentioned listening to detrans and desist, they obviously got another treatment.

Therapy can take years. It sucks to say and it sucks to be told this, but it just does take years to unpack issues and treat conditions. I absolutely get why someone is unwilling to endure that, but you will never know if you’d have been able to reach a healthier mindset if you’d stayed in therapy because you transitioned instead (hopefully still got therapy but once it’s done it’s done). Again I can’t stress enough I get why someone chooses to transition, my point is just that therapy is/can be a years long process, it’s not a quick fix. And suicidal people should be hospitalized, not operated on. I don’t doubt that it helped you in some ways, but it’s hard for me to see transition as the most effective when you acknowledge it doesn’t work for many people, and it doesn’t really address your full condition. Fact of the matter is, the distress is a part of it- it’s clearly not all of it. Or even most of it. If someone truly thinks they are something they aren’t, surgery or not, they aren’t being treated effectively. I’m not talking about you specifically, idk how you identify, I’m it’s confusing to me that you’re saying that even though you’re aware that other dysphoric people have treated their condition in a different way, like- you literally know these people exist, and you’re acknowledging that some don’t improve and some are even worse off, you still keep saying transition is the solution. Even the fact that you feel strange and uncomfortable if someone acknowledges your sex is indicative that you’re not really rid of dysphoria imo

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think transition is the only treatment or most effective treatment for everyone. I agree that the diagnosis is flawed. Screening should be better, and research needs to be done, especially because evidently nothing has yet to be shown as consistently effective for early onset, persistent gender dysphoria/sex dysphoria. If the sex dysphoria is intense enough, you'll eventually successfully mutilate yourself or kill yourself before any meaningful therapy can be had if the dysphoria has gone on to long, at least in my experience.

Transition obviously isn't the solution for these people who detransition or desist--many of them or most of them are likely not suffering from transsexualism. They may experience gender dysphoria, which a revision of Gender Identity Disorder, which originally was synonymous with transsexualism. But most people who experience gender dysphoria are not suffering from transsexualism, particularly when it's early onset. Medical transition seems to be the most reliably effective solution for early onset transsexualism, but for other expressions of gender dysphoria, that reliability is lacking.

Would it not be strange to you to be referred to as the opposite sex? If it started when you were little, you might find it funny as I did; you might think everyone will feel very silly when they realize their mistake. It's a novelty. Time may have passed by, and you keep waiting for people to get it, but they don't. Then you realize that you aren't the sex you thought you were, and you were never going to grow up to be that sex. It Probably wouldn't really bother most people at first, but if it continued for years, decades, how would you feel then? It might be hard to fathom, but it drove me crazy, because "I" didn't really exist.

I identify as me. I don't really like the phrase "I identify as ___" as it just sounds weird and forced to me. I've come to think of gender identity as bologna; I'm just myself. It just so happens I've grown up seeing myself and thinking of myself as a woman. Just knowing I'm a woman. I don't identify as anything other than Fleurista (well, my real name).

Hopefully that gives you a bit more context. I originally asked the main question because I hate being a transsexual person, and would hope that if one can avoid living that life that everything should be done to make sure that happens.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I get what you’re saying but I think just 1. In my question, you’d not be being referred to as the opposite sex, your mental condition makes you convince yourself you are, which is kind of exactly my point and 2. What you’re describing to me sounds like mental illness, and sounds like if you hate being trans, then the treatment you received maybe wasn’t the best course of action for you in the long run. and as I said, suicidal people should be hospitalized- not operated on. If someone is monitored in a hospital they would not likely kill themselves, they’d not have much opportunity to do so.

If you don’t think transition is the only or most effective treatment, I’m not quite sure what this post was for though I enjoyed engaging.

I’m confused about you separating transsexualism from dysphoria- it seems like you’re saying they’re drastically different when I think one (dysphoria) often leads to the other (transsexualism). Unless you mean some people feel discontent with their “gender” and others with their body? But if that’s what you mean, isn’t that sex dysphoria, as opposed to gender dysphoria?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Perhaps suicidal people should be hospitalized before being operated on, but I wasn't going to tell anyone I was going to kill myself, I was going to just do it, and plan and take special care to make sure I died. But now it's after the fact, so it's kind of moot for me. I'm not sure what to say about others in this case. I think transition is the most effective form of treatment for certain transsexual people, and seems to be all that we have available to us, that group for whom it works best. If something were better, why shouldn't we want that though? Why shouldn't we want to prevent transsexualism if we could or find a more effective, less physiologically and socially disruptive treatment? There will likely be better treatment in the future, but for now, for people like me, it seems like this is all we have. Call it barbaric, in the same way that electroshock therapy or the use of certain drugs for treatment of other conditions in the past were barbaric, but this, like those treatments, is all that we have in the modality of our time. We can't time travel yet to get that new treatment now, just like they couldn't, so we use what we know best. Research is the only thing that will change that, but obviously it's not happening, and I do believe it should. And yes, I do see discontent with sex experienced as a physical sensation being distinct from gender dysphoria, or discontent with sex experienced psychologically. I believe the two experiences should be disentangled from each other, and that perhaps for early onset transsexualism the person experiences both, while other people may experience one phenomenon or the other individually. The reasoning and development for such experiences could also probably inform further whether transsexualism is an accurate diagnosis. People who want to change their bodies or believe they can genuinely change their sex have coopted and been lumped in with transsexualism under the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which was made specifically to expand access to people who wanted it but were not classic transsexuals. It's why I and a lot of transsexual people feel similarly to others who disagree with gender ideology and this concept of "gender identity". It's necessary to disentangle it, and transsexual people suffering from the classical or early onset forms described in the earliest literature on the phenomenon probably need to have something like "sex dysphoria" created as a new diagnostic to differentiate us, or push for more focus on reintroducing transsexualism into the DSM as separate and more specific compared to the current description of gender dysphoria. It's why people like truscum or trans medicalists claim so many people who claim to be transgender or "trans" actually aren't, they wouldn't be considered such if the diagnosis hadn't been altered to include more people.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think I agree with what you’re saying about separating transgender and transsexual to an extent, as far as being diagnosed. I still just don’t think transition is a good form of treatment, personally. I agree with what Houseplant was saying.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I appreciate your response and views, thank you. This is sort of a general commentary addressed to everyone who's responded or is reading this thread, but you and the other respondents have shared your personal opinions on current treatment and your personal opinions and speculation as to what might be more effective treatment. No one has shared any evidence of more effective treatment as an alternative to SRS or HRT; someone said to watch desistors' vlogs on YouTube, which is the closest thing to any actual evidence or examples. Speculation and opinions are fabulous, but they aren't really helpful in relation to what I originally asked.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Respectfully, I feel like we’ve literally said therapy... so many times. Does it help if we say extensive therapy? Psychoanalysis? Trauma treatment, if applicable? Does it help if we clarify that we mean therapy that doesn’t include gender affirmation?

Therapy doesn’t just exist in a therapist’s office. You have to be taught coping mechanisms, acceptance (I don’t mean body acceptance, I mean accepting the reality of your sex) and all sorts of different ways to deal with what you’re feeling and thinking. You also have to be willing to apply what is taught and discussed in therapy outside of therapy. I disagree that what’s being said isn’t helpful- pointing out that transition leaves a lot unresolved is pretty relevant imo.

I also said the other conditions a trans person is likely to have should be treated before resorting to transitioning.

And clearly if desistors and detransitioners exist, there are alternative treatments. They told you to watch those videos and listen to those people because... they got treated.

Questioning the effectiveness of what you consider treatment is relevant. So is pointing out that other treatments are all but banned.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Honestly, I was hoping to see studies, things I'd missed in my own research, that had been shown to be specifically effective for treating early onset transsexualism/HSTS, the same way or better than how SRS/HRT/cross sex living has been studied. I was asking for solid evidence and examples of success for treating that form of gender dysphoria. Those YouTube videos are very interesting and I think can be helpful to many, I haven't been able to find any detransitioners or desistors that grew up with that extreme sex dysphoria; they may exist, it remains to be seen by me unless anyone has any suggestions.

I appreciate the feelings and opinions on the matter, but I was really hoping (and asking) for facts.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Okay but are you willing to answer my questions?

Eta- how can you measure a detransitioner’s or desistor’s level of dysphoria? You can’t possibly know how severe something is for someone else. The fact remains there are people who found other ways to treat dysphoria, you can’t just dismiss them because you don’t think they suffered as much as you. They may have, but don’t consider it as severe even if it was, because they were able to treat it differently. Scale of 1-10, you could say 8 and I could say 5 and we could be in the same level of pain, you can’t measure it for someone else any more than they can for you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Re being suicidal- suicidal people should be hospitalized, not given hormones and surgery. I know nobody wants to be confined to a hospital, but many people with other mental health issues have to be. And as we’ve seen, transitioning doesn’t alway guarantee you feel better- again I refer to detrans and the suicide rate not dropping. If existing in your body as it developed naturally makes you want to die, you should be monitored and hospitalized until thats not the case. Anyone else who threatens suicide or is suicidal would be hospitalized and monitored, why are trans people the exception? As I’ve said before Idgaf what adults do to their bodies, I’m asking for discussion’s sake, why a physically healthy person who has a mental condition that makes them literally hate their own body to the extent that they want to kill themselves for no reason other than the sex they were born should be operated on rather than hospitalized and put in therapy?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

There's suicidiality, suicidal gestures and suicide itself. A lot of people who commit suicide successfully don't give any outward indication they were going to do so. From my experience, it was going to be successful, I would have made sure of it. I wanted to die, why would I have committed myself? I knew I was crazy and there was no cure other than surgical, hormonal and socially "transitioning". And when I explained finally to therapists that feeling the way I did made me want to die, the professionals turned to what research suggests, which is surgical, hormonal and social "transition". Since those are the suggestions in research and medicine, why wouldn't the professionals tell me that's what I need? I suppose you could call it a failure on the part of the medical community and scientists and researchers as a whole, but that's all there is, whether one believes it's best or not. Research and medical opinion on transsexualism doesn't call for people with those symptoms to be hospitalized; if one believes that's the best course of action, genuinely, perhaps one should advocate actively to the medical community itself or pay for research to be done that would support their beliefs. To claim treatment should be something else based on personal belief without compiling evidence themselves and backing up what they claim, or funding research into the believed method of treatment, or actively doing the research themselves, is lazy. How can anyone take seriously what someone is claiming if they're not making any sort of effort to back up their claim? What's being presented is vague and nonspecific, and entirely based on conjecture.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I do honestly think it’s a failure of the medical community. I think it’s absurd that people with this condition that are suicidal aren’t hospitalized. And I think it’s even more absurd to have a treatment that is so drastic and invasive for other people be the standard treatment. But I don’t agree that what I’m saying is lazy- I’m not a scientist. It’s not on me to find an alternative for you or others similar to you, but I can see the flaws in the treatment that they receive. I never said transition doesn’t help some people, I said it doesn’t seem to treat anything other than distress over your body, and even then, only sometimes. It seems very clear to me that it doesn’t treat and often worsens the mental aspect (by worsen, I mean to say it seems to pushes the patient deeper into the belief that they are something that they literally just are not). I’m not basing what I’m saying on personal belief, my personal belief is it’s your body do what you want to it, I’m basing it on the overwhelming evidence that it’s not treating much besides distress and the “social transitioning” puts a lot of responsibility on people that shouldn’t have to be involved. This treatment causes issues for many trans people and many people who aren’t trans, so to me it’s just not effective in the long run.

My issue is not the surgeries on their own, it’s that I think anyone getting these procedures should have to acknowledge the truth of the situation (that they are not transitioning into the opposite sex/gender, and that this surgery is intended to alleviate dysphoria- it’s not a sex change, and they shouldn’t expect the general public to make exceptions for them or pretend they are something they aren’t, they should have to agree to respect the boundaries of others, imo- it’s basically what I commented on another post).

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't think you're being personally lazy, I'm sorry if the way I worded that implied that. You've been making thoughtful points and observations. I guess maybe a way I can put it is, because I know that I am not an expert or medical professional, I personally don't feel it's my place or it's appropriate for me to give medical advice or suggestions to anyone. I can talk about my opinions or thoughts based on what I've read, and I can question a treatment or medical advice, but I don't feel I really have a right to criticize or condemn or advocate something without understanding it fully. I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional, I feel I have no place giving advice about diabetes to anyone other than "I don't know, ask a professional". Similarly, even though I've experienced clinical anxiety and have experience with treatment and treatment of others, I don't feel comfortable nor feel it's appropriate for me to condemn or advocate for specific courses of treatment. I simply admit, despite learning some things about these, I really don't know what I'm talking about. But I certainly have my opinions and ideas based on what I do know, or at least think I know. But really I'm dumb when it comes to these things.

I really really really don't mean to insult or condescend to you or anyone here, I'm just trying to reiterate that I understand a place for opinions and thoughts on subjects and appreciate them in their own right, but I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

I can appreciate your thoughts on these procedures, and I respect them, but I am also trying to get across that most transsexuals--the people who these treatments were originally intended for--don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology, and they suffer greatly. Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society, and they don't "identify" as anything and don't see themselves "transtitioning" to another gender or sex. The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life (as much as they could anyway). They idea that people weaponize transgender rights and laws and push it on others is abhorrent to me. That's not me, and I don't think it's most transsexuals. I wish we weren't conflated with whatever and whoever it was that the people who are like that and do act like that are. We're distinct from that group of people and their problems, and it really isn't fair or accurate to call all of us trans. If they're trans, then I guess I'm not, I'm something else. Or trans means something else entirely at this point.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional

Diabetes and a mental illness are two entirely different things.

I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

How do you provide hard evidence when all non-affirming research dies before it can even get off the ground?

most transsexuals don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology

If they acknowledged their biology, transitioning wouldn't work at all because they'd be aware of the fact that changing one's sex is impossible, and that they're not really doing a thing to change their sex.

I also wouldn't call a baseless belief in having a "female brain" (which I'm going to presume with 99% certainty that you also share because ofc) a healthy take.

and they suffer greatly

I suffer too when men tell me our oppression is just due to our feminine brains making us inferior.

Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society

The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life

The problem with this is that you're essentially telling all the gender nonconforming people that they have opposite sex brains and that they should stop being the nail that sticks out and just assimilate into society quietly in the appropriate patriarchal role expected of them so they don't make a scene. No, I don't want to "live quietly as a proper meek woman" because I don't base satisfaction with gender roles based on how much our patriarchal society recognises my "female brain" and approves of it.

We're distinct from that group of people and their problems

Not any longer you're not.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have a really good idea based on how they talk about their dysphoria, what made them dysphoric, how long they were dysphoric, if certain parts of their bodies made/make them dysphoric and in what ways, if they describe physical sensations of dysphoria or not, if they speak about it more socially or physically, if they were gnc as children and pretransition and in what ways, whether they describe themselves as being the opposite sex or if they're becoming the opposite sex. Physical sensations of dysphoria, described in ways similar to but not entirely exactly like phantom limb syndrome or body integrity disorder as though my sexual organs were spilling out of me and needed to be pushed back in, and having the conviction I was going to grow up to be a woman/mommy until I was 10 and realized that it probably wasn't going to happen as I learned I had a boy's body, and that's why people saw me as a boy, are my core experiences of gender dysphoria. I don't know what the concept of "waves" or bouts of gender dysphoria is like. That's not to say what other people are experiencing is not gender dysphoria, but the more you let someone speak in their own words about their experience, the better understanding you have of that person's level of discomfort and possible means of addressing the problem. The diagnosis likely needs revision so that people can't just run down a checklist of symptoms, and they can thoughtfully describe their gender dysphoria over a prolonged period of time.

I'm not saying anyone has suffered more or less than anyone else, this isn't about levels of suffering. It's about the experience of the suffering and how care can and should be individualized. I don't relate to these detransitioners and desistors because their description of their own gender dysphoria is missing key experiences of mine and includes parts I have never experienced.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I still don’t think you can measure their dysphoria compared to yours, and you can’t know what they don’t share or discuss, but I get what you’re saying and it makes more sense than most answers I got from qt/trans.

I think what is confusing me is you say elsewhere that you hate being trans, but say this was the best treatment for you. I guess I feel like if it’s the best treatment, you shouldn’t and wouldn’t hate that about yourself? I do believe that for some, srs and hormones alleviates a certain level of distress, but since it seems to not be a cure or even effective in alleviating more distress, and does nothing to address the mental aspect (other than alleviating some distress), it’s hard for me to accept that it’s the best option for anyone. I still think extensive therapy and if needed, hospitalization while you get extensive therapy, is better in the long run. If someone can’t fully embrace being trans and not say they wish they weren’t, I don’t feel they’ve been treated effectively, personally. You seem more level headed than other qt/trans people I interact with here, but you also still seem just as discontent as the ones who aren’t so level headed.

It kind of seems to me that you’re talking about a treatment for distress that causes you to feel suicidal, not so much a treatment for the actual condition that causes the distress? And I was more thinking of treatment for the dysphoria itself. Or I’m totally wrong idk but I appreciate your answers. They’re well thought out and articulate.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes, I do hate it, and yes, surgical and hormonal treatment was the best treatment for me. It stopped self mutilation and it stopped me from killing myself. I would have liked to have had a normal life living as my birth sex, and I guess I hate myself for not being able to live that way. I'd rather live a life that pleases everyone instead of offends people.

A lot of my discontent is from sharing gender critical views and seeing myself as deluded freak; not all the time, that's a largely a self esteem issue from growing up living in a world that made it clear in every way that I was a freak, was wrong and was not a good person. I didn't grow up in the pro-trans "yay! be transgender!" world we have now. I might not hate myself as much if I had, and for that reason I'm on one hand happy for actual trans kids growing up now, but on the other unhappy to see unchecked boundaries of access to treatment.

The physical distress and psychological distress has lead to self harm, and to a self hatred for being something I shouldn't be. As I said, the world has made it clear from early childhood to me that my perception of myself and self-image is delusional, that I am wrong and "bad" for being the way I am, and it is my fault for being this way. I tried to change my perception of myself and my self-image and ignore my physical sensations because I want to be "good" and normal, but nothing I did was working. I don't want to hurt anyone or offend anyone, and I didn't see a place for me in this world, so I didn't want to live. This is where I would extend some agreement with newer trans ideology, that a lot of the distress is from (classic) societal views and treatment. The overwhelming message growing up and internalized was "I am wrong, I don't belong, I am crazy, I am bad, I am sick, I am a freak, this world is not for me".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think this makes sense. I get why someone chooses to transition, I just think that there needs to be more effort to find a better solution/treatment. And I tend to think that the problem with finding alternative treatment lies in the fact that most people suffering don’t want to endure the process of finding a better treatment (which, again, I totally get why they wouldn’t be). I feel like any mental illness that professionals find ways to treat- the treatment can only be found by taking the time to explore alternatives, and that can take years, even decades. I can’t word well what I’m trying to say, but i mean finding effective treatment is trial and error and takes time, and since transition is an option, most patients aren’t willing to endure other methods. I don’t have an issue with adults having these surgeries, I think they’re a bit barbaric in all honesty and seem to come with a lot of potential complications and as I said I don’t think it treats anything but the bodily discomfort, and I think it does kind of feed the delusion (idk another word to use here and thought it might be okay since you used this word, sorry if I offend), but an informed adult should be able to whatever they want to their body. I just don’t think it should be referred to as treatment, because it doesn’t truly treat the full issue, it only seems to alleviate one aspect of it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with much of what you're saying. I would like to ask though, how is alleviation, even if of just one part, not considered treatment in your opinion? I'm not sure how you feel about psychiatric medication and whether they have a place in medicine, but if a medicine only alleviates some symptoms and has been most effective for someone, would you not consider that treatment? I'm just curious of your opinion and would like elaboration into your views on this if you don't mind.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is where I would extend some agreement with newer trans ideology, that a lot of the distress is from (classic) societal views and treatment.

A lot of GC people agree that our patriarchal society pushes people into transitioning (and other unhealthy gender roles) if they find they don't fit into a patriarchal category properly. GC just doesn't think that the solution to this is to give people drugs and plastic surgeries to make them fit into patriarchal categories better so they can have a peace of mind. Many minorities and women have had to and will have to deal with being treated as inferior, but they didn't make it their ideal to imitate something they're not so that society wouldn't disapprove of them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think that's the solution for that kind of distress either, that really should be reserved to treat classic transsexualism until better treatment is developed or discovered. And I agree, no one should have to imitate anything or anyone they aren't just to fit in.