GC: Are there specific alternative treatments to SRS and HRT that have proven effective for successfully treating the most severe forms of gender dysphoria or transsexualism?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

I'm asking because gender dysphoria has severe throughout my entire life, complete with repeated self-mutilation from childhood into adulthood, and the conviction from the age of five that I was going to grow up to be a woman that never went away, even though I knew it was delusional and crazy. I tried lots of forms of therapy and medication, abused drugs and sought solace in clean, healthy living to try to cure myself. None of it touched my conviction and self perception. I resigned myself nearly a decade ago to a fate I figured inevitable, but would have avoided if I felt I could.

It seems that most people who are gender critical accept that gender dysphoria is real and that people suffering from it need treatment, but most of what I've seen for suggestions of treatment are nonspecific ("therapy") and don't elaborate. I can understand gender dysphoria being treatable without HRT or SRS for people who develop it later or even in adolescents, but I haven't been able to find examples of successful alternate forms of treatment for adults that suffered from early onset transsexualism or gender dysphoria. Are there any specific proven treatments or successful examples in academia or journals?

edit: It may have been more appropriate to label this "All" instead of "GC", I'm sorry if I did that wrong

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

I’d say what tras refer to as “conversion therapy” but is actually... therapy. Mental illnesses are not easy to treat, trans people have to be willing to let themselves be treated, even if (maybe even especially if) it’s really hard for them. I can’t think of very many trans people that only have dysphoria. It seems like there’s almost always a host of other mental issues that need to be sorted out and dealt with, and I’ve always wondered what the outcome would be for most people who “transition” if the other mental health concerns are addressed and treated before dysphoria is.

Also, shitty as it is to say, most people with mental conditions have to learn to manage it. Like- it’s not easy, and I’m sure it gets incredibly difficult for many, but the reality is that most people with mental disorders/illnesses/whatever word it’s currently pc to use just have to figure out how to manage it. Altering the physical is not treatment- it’s a band aid. And I can’t think of any other treatment for mental illness that demands so much from other people, while allowing the patient to ignore reality. Transition feeds the mental issues, even if it alleviates the distress. That’s why I said what I said about trans people needing to be able to acknowledge that they aren’t really transitioning into anything significantly different. If you transition and people still call you a man or use male pronouns and that triggers you- have you really been treated? If you can’t be open about being trans even when you know it’s safe- have you really been treated? If you need to insist that you are in fact the opposite sex (man and woman are sexed terms- not gendered)- have you really been treated? If you need to cling to debunked pseudoscience- have you really been treated? If you transition and don’t pass and or you still aren’t satisfied with your body- have you really been treated? Transition at best helps alleviate distress over your body, but doesn’t seem to do much else unless you’re lucky enough to pass, and if you pass- there’s still all those questions I asked. Honestly the more I listen to and engage with trans people, it’s hard for me to see them as people who have truly been treated for any mental issues (obligatory not all trans- though honestly only peaking and one other person come to mind when I think of exceptions), it seems to me that for many, transition brings on a lot of other issues and reinforces the idea that they are a woman/man, which just isn’t true. It’s a faulty treatment at best that wasn’t even developed with your best interest in mind, and it seems like this narrative of “anything other than ‘mones and or surgery is just transphobic” is harmful to many dysphoric people, and means that more effective and healthy treatment is not being explored enough.

There’s a reason the suicide rates don’t drop post transition.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Truthfully, even if alternative treatments weren’t viewed as transphobic, the fact that dysphoric people know they can get these surgeries and hormones is in itself a barrier to alternative treatments. If you’re in distress and you already know you can snip and reconstruct and take cross sex hormones, and you tell yourself that you’ll be one of those rare trans people who can pass and effectively assimilate- would you be willing to go through the likely time consuming and arduous process of truly treating the mental issues that led you to want to transition? Or would you jump to what both alleviates the biggest symptom and theoretically gives you exactly what you want? I can’t say for sure because people vary and I don’t have dysphoria, but I feel like most people would jump to transition rather than deal with the alternative.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In post-USSR to get legal "sex reassigment" surgery and to change sex in documents, person need to visit psychiatrist for at least a year, must be at least half a year or a year on treatment - to know if person really want it and if they don't have other issues, and fully comit to it as well.

In my country because of that - transsexuals often just going abroad for surgeries instead (so it is always middle class or rich people), and not changing legal sex in documents. Transgenders are not even trying anything and bying medicine abroad, as here you can';t buy it without medical prescription, and to get one you need to go for a treatment and check you if you don't have a ton of other issues. Cross-sex hormonal therapy also believed to be stressful and that if there other issues over gender dysphoria - can lead to strenghtening those issues that can lead to suicide.

Most transsexuals are still mostly homosexual people with very strong internalized homophobia, it is still present, even after USSR practices of forced transitioning and propaganda that gay men were just women born in wrong bodies - had stopped.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I certainly would love to try any alternative treatment that cure my dysphoria better than SRS has. Since that was standard treatment and no therapy or medications or drugs or lifestyle changes worked and I was going to kill myself otherwise finally, I didn't really see another choice. If one had been available, I would have jumped on it instead. Some trans people really, really don't want to be trans and do anything not to be.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

How long where you in therapy that didn’t include discussing transition before you transitioned?

How long where you in therapy that focused on getting to the root of your dysphoria, and possibly (if applicable) addressing any other issues you may have had, before beginning transition?

What medications did you take, and what were they for?

If someone calls you a man or he/him how do you deal with it?

Were you ever gnc, like openly and freely, pre transition?

Do you genuinely believe that someone who has surgeries but is still obviously the sex they were born, or has complications with their surgery any less suicidal?

Not trying to prove any point, trying to understand what you experienced because it seems like any answer won’t be good enough for you

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

10 months

4 months

Olanzapine, Quetiapine, Effexor, Sertraline, Latuda, Lamotrigine, Clonazepam, Ativan, Lithium, Bupropion (all for panic and GAD, except Lithium for bipolar that was ruled out)

I feel strange and uncomfortable because it seems like they're talking to or about another person, like it's weird they don't see me

I was very openly, naturally gnc for my whole life before transition

Yes, I do. I no longer have suicidal ideation 2.5 years post op. Some people are less suicidal, some more, some no different.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

“some people are less suicidal, some more, some no different”

Suggest that transition is not in fact the only treatment or the most effective treatment. If 2/3 are either the same or worse off- that’s a huge flaw. Once again, this is why the other poster mentioned listening to detrans and desist, they obviously got another treatment.

Therapy can take years. It sucks to say and it sucks to be told this, but it just does take years to unpack issues and treat conditions. I absolutely get why someone is unwilling to endure that, but you will never know if you’d have been able to reach a healthier mindset if you’d stayed in therapy because you transitioned instead (hopefully still got therapy but once it’s done it’s done). Again I can’t stress enough I get why someone chooses to transition, my point is just that therapy is/can be a years long process, it’s not a quick fix. And suicidal people should be hospitalized, not operated on. I don’t doubt that it helped you in some ways, but it’s hard for me to see transition as the most effective when you acknowledge it doesn’t work for many people, and it doesn’t really address your full condition. Fact of the matter is, the distress is a part of it- it’s clearly not all of it. Or even most of it. If someone truly thinks they are something they aren’t, surgery or not, they aren’t being treated effectively. I’m not talking about you specifically, idk how you identify, I’m it’s confusing to me that you’re saying that even though you’re aware that other dysphoric people have treated their condition in a different way, like- you literally know these people exist, and you’re acknowledging that some don’t improve and some are even worse off, you still keep saying transition is the solution. Even the fact that you feel strange and uncomfortable if someone acknowledges your sex is indicative that you’re not really rid of dysphoria imo

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think transition is the only treatment or most effective treatment for everyone. I agree that the diagnosis is flawed. Screening should be better, and research needs to be done, especially because evidently nothing has yet to be shown as consistently effective for early onset, persistent gender dysphoria/sex dysphoria. If the sex dysphoria is intense enough, you'll eventually successfully mutilate yourself or kill yourself before any meaningful therapy can be had if the dysphoria has gone on to long, at least in my experience.

Transition obviously isn't the solution for these people who detransition or desist--many of them or most of them are likely not suffering from transsexualism. They may experience gender dysphoria, which a revision of Gender Identity Disorder, which originally was synonymous with transsexualism. But most people who experience gender dysphoria are not suffering from transsexualism, particularly when it's early onset. Medical transition seems to be the most reliably effective solution for early onset transsexualism, but for other expressions of gender dysphoria, that reliability is lacking.

Would it not be strange to you to be referred to as the opposite sex? If it started when you were little, you might find it funny as I did; you might think everyone will feel very silly when they realize their mistake. It's a novelty. Time may have passed by, and you keep waiting for people to get it, but they don't. Then you realize that you aren't the sex you thought you were, and you were never going to grow up to be that sex. It Probably wouldn't really bother most people at first, but if it continued for years, decades, how would you feel then? It might be hard to fathom, but it drove me crazy, because "I" didn't really exist.

I identify as me. I don't really like the phrase "I identify as ___" as it just sounds weird and forced to me. I've come to think of gender identity as bologna; I'm just myself. It just so happens I've grown up seeing myself and thinking of myself as a woman. Just knowing I'm a woman. I don't identify as anything other than Fleurista (well, my real name).

Hopefully that gives you a bit more context. I originally asked the main question because I hate being a transsexual person, and would hope that if one can avoid living that life that everything should be done to make sure that happens.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I get what you’re saying but I think just 1. In my question, you’d not be being referred to as the opposite sex, your mental condition makes you convince yourself you are, which is kind of exactly my point and 2. What you’re describing to me sounds like mental illness, and sounds like if you hate being trans, then the treatment you received maybe wasn’t the best course of action for you in the long run. and as I said, suicidal people should be hospitalized- not operated on. If someone is monitored in a hospital they would not likely kill themselves, they’d not have much opportunity to do so.

If you don’t think transition is the only or most effective treatment, I’m not quite sure what this post was for though I enjoyed engaging.

I’m confused about you separating transsexualism from dysphoria- it seems like you’re saying they’re drastically different when I think one (dysphoria) often leads to the other (transsexualism). Unless you mean some people feel discontent with their “gender” and others with their body? But if that’s what you mean, isn’t that sex dysphoria, as opposed to gender dysphoria?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Perhaps suicidal people should be hospitalized before being operated on, but I wasn't going to tell anyone I was going to kill myself, I was going to just do it, and plan and take special care to make sure I died. But now it's after the fact, so it's kind of moot for me. I'm not sure what to say about others in this case. I think transition is the most effective form of treatment for certain transsexual people, and seems to be all that we have available to us, that group for whom it works best. If something were better, why shouldn't we want that though? Why shouldn't we want to prevent transsexualism if we could or find a more effective, less physiologically and socially disruptive treatment? There will likely be better treatment in the future, but for now, for people like me, it seems like this is all we have. Call it barbaric, in the same way that electroshock therapy or the use of certain drugs for treatment of other conditions in the past were barbaric, but this, like those treatments, is all that we have in the modality of our time. We can't time travel yet to get that new treatment now, just like they couldn't, so we use what we know best. Research is the only thing that will change that, but obviously it's not happening, and I do believe it should. And yes, I do see discontent with sex experienced as a physical sensation being distinct from gender dysphoria, or discontent with sex experienced psychologically. I believe the two experiences should be disentangled from each other, and that perhaps for early onset transsexualism the person experiences both, while other people may experience one phenomenon or the other individually. The reasoning and development for such experiences could also probably inform further whether transsexualism is an accurate diagnosis. People who want to change their bodies or believe they can genuinely change their sex have coopted and been lumped in with transsexualism under the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which was made specifically to expand access to people who wanted it but were not classic transsexuals. It's why I and a lot of transsexual people feel similarly to others who disagree with gender ideology and this concept of "gender identity". It's necessary to disentangle it, and transsexual people suffering from the classical or early onset forms described in the earliest literature on the phenomenon probably need to have something like "sex dysphoria" created as a new diagnostic to differentiate us, or push for more focus on reintroducing transsexualism into the DSM as separate and more specific compared to the current description of gender dysphoria. It's why people like truscum or trans medicalists claim so many people who claim to be transgender or "trans" actually aren't, they wouldn't be considered such if the diagnosis hadn't been altered to include more people.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think I agree with what you’re saying about separating transgender and transsexual to an extent, as far as being diagnosed. I still just don’t think transition is a good form of treatment, personally. I agree with what Houseplant was saying.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I appreciate your response and views, thank you. This is sort of a general commentary addressed to everyone who's responded or is reading this thread, but you and the other respondents have shared your personal opinions on current treatment and your personal opinions and speculation as to what might be more effective treatment. No one has shared any evidence of more effective treatment as an alternative to SRS or HRT; someone said to watch desistors' vlogs on YouTube, which is the closest thing to any actual evidence or examples. Speculation and opinions are fabulous, but they aren't really helpful in relation to what I originally asked.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Respectfully, I feel like we’ve literally said therapy... so many times. Does it help if we say extensive therapy? Psychoanalysis? Trauma treatment, if applicable? Does it help if we clarify that we mean therapy that doesn’t include gender affirmation?

Therapy doesn’t just exist in a therapist’s office. You have to be taught coping mechanisms, acceptance (I don’t mean body acceptance, I mean accepting the reality of your sex) and all sorts of different ways to deal with what you’re feeling and thinking. You also have to be willing to apply what is taught and discussed in therapy outside of therapy. I disagree that what’s being said isn’t helpful- pointing out that transition leaves a lot unresolved is pretty relevant imo.

I also said the other conditions a trans person is likely to have should be treated before resorting to transitioning.

And clearly if desistors and detransitioners exist, there are alternative treatments. They told you to watch those videos and listen to those people because... they got treated.

Questioning the effectiveness of what you consider treatment is relevant. So is pointing out that other treatments are all but banned.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Honestly, I was hoping to see studies, things I'd missed in my own research, that had been shown to be specifically effective for treating early onset transsexualism/HSTS, the same way or better than how SRS/HRT/cross sex living has been studied. I was asking for solid evidence and examples of success for treating that form of gender dysphoria. Those YouTube videos are very interesting and I think can be helpful to many, I haven't been able to find any detransitioners or desistors that grew up with that extreme sex dysphoria; they may exist, it remains to be seen by me unless anyone has any suggestions.

I appreciate the feelings and opinions on the matter, but I was really hoping (and asking) for facts.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Okay but are you willing to answer my questions?

Eta- how can you measure a detransitioner’s or desistor’s level of dysphoria? You can’t possibly know how severe something is for someone else. The fact remains there are people who found other ways to treat dysphoria, you can’t just dismiss them because you don’t think they suffered as much as you. They may have, but don’t consider it as severe even if it was, because they were able to treat it differently. Scale of 1-10, you could say 8 and I could say 5 and we could be in the same level of pain, you can’t measure it for someone else any more than they can for you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Re being suicidal- suicidal people should be hospitalized, not given hormones and surgery. I know nobody wants to be confined to a hospital, but many people with other mental health issues have to be. And as we’ve seen, transitioning doesn’t alway guarantee you feel better- again I refer to detrans and the suicide rate not dropping. If existing in your body as it developed naturally makes you want to die, you should be monitored and hospitalized until thats not the case. Anyone else who threatens suicide or is suicidal would be hospitalized and monitored, why are trans people the exception? As I’ve said before Idgaf what adults do to their bodies, I’m asking for discussion’s sake, why a physically healthy person who has a mental condition that makes them literally hate their own body to the extent that they want to kill themselves for no reason other than the sex they were born should be operated on rather than hospitalized and put in therapy?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

There's suicidiality, suicidal gestures and suicide itself. A lot of people who commit suicide successfully don't give any outward indication they were going to do so. From my experience, it was going to be successful, I would have made sure of it. I wanted to die, why would I have committed myself? I knew I was crazy and there was no cure other than surgical, hormonal and socially "transitioning". And when I explained finally to therapists that feeling the way I did made me want to die, the professionals turned to what research suggests, which is surgical, hormonal and social "transition". Since those are the suggestions in research and medicine, why wouldn't the professionals tell me that's what I need? I suppose you could call it a failure on the part of the medical community and scientists and researchers as a whole, but that's all there is, whether one believes it's best or not. Research and medical opinion on transsexualism doesn't call for people with those symptoms to be hospitalized; if one believes that's the best course of action, genuinely, perhaps one should advocate actively to the medical community itself or pay for research to be done that would support their beliefs. To claim treatment should be something else based on personal belief without compiling evidence themselves and backing up what they claim, or funding research into the believed method of treatment, or actively doing the research themselves, is lazy. How can anyone take seriously what someone is claiming if they're not making any sort of effort to back up their claim? What's being presented is vague and nonspecific, and entirely based on conjecture.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I do honestly think it’s a failure of the medical community. I think it’s absurd that people with this condition that are suicidal aren’t hospitalized. And I think it’s even more absurd to have a treatment that is so drastic and invasive for other people be the standard treatment. But I don’t agree that what I’m saying is lazy- I’m not a scientist. It’s not on me to find an alternative for you or others similar to you, but I can see the flaws in the treatment that they receive. I never said transition doesn’t help some people, I said it doesn’t seem to treat anything other than distress over your body, and even then, only sometimes. It seems very clear to me that it doesn’t treat and often worsens the mental aspect (by worsen, I mean to say it seems to pushes the patient deeper into the belief that they are something that they literally just are not). I’m not basing what I’m saying on personal belief, my personal belief is it’s your body do what you want to it, I’m basing it on the overwhelming evidence that it’s not treating much besides distress and the “social transitioning” puts a lot of responsibility on people that shouldn’t have to be involved. This treatment causes issues for many trans people and many people who aren’t trans, so to me it’s just not effective in the long run.

My issue is not the surgeries on their own, it’s that I think anyone getting these procedures should have to acknowledge the truth of the situation (that they are not transitioning into the opposite sex/gender, and that this surgery is intended to alleviate dysphoria- it’s not a sex change, and they shouldn’t expect the general public to make exceptions for them or pretend they are something they aren’t, they should have to agree to respect the boundaries of others, imo- it’s basically what I commented on another post).

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't think you're being personally lazy, I'm sorry if the way I worded that implied that. You've been making thoughtful points and observations. I guess maybe a way I can put it is, because I know that I am not an expert or medical professional, I personally don't feel it's my place or it's appropriate for me to give medical advice or suggestions to anyone. I can talk about my opinions or thoughts based on what I've read, and I can question a treatment or medical advice, but I don't feel I really have a right to criticize or condemn or advocate something without understanding it fully. I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional, I feel I have no place giving advice about diabetes to anyone other than "I don't know, ask a professional". Similarly, even though I've experienced clinical anxiety and have experience with treatment and treatment of others, I don't feel comfortable nor feel it's appropriate for me to condemn or advocate for specific courses of treatment. I simply admit, despite learning some things about these, I really don't know what I'm talking about. But I certainly have my opinions and ideas based on what I do know, or at least think I know. But really I'm dumb when it comes to these things.

I really really really don't mean to insult or condescend to you or anyone here, I'm just trying to reiterate that I understand a place for opinions and thoughts on subjects and appreciate them in their own right, but I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

I can appreciate your thoughts on these procedures, and I respect them, but I am also trying to get across that most transsexuals--the people who these treatments were originally intended for--don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology, and they suffer greatly. Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society, and they don't "identify" as anything and don't see themselves "transtitioning" to another gender or sex. The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life (as much as they could anyway). They idea that people weaponize transgender rights and laws and push it on others is abhorrent to me. That's not me, and I don't think it's most transsexuals. I wish we weren't conflated with whatever and whoever it was that the people who are like that and do act like that are. We're distinct from that group of people and their problems, and it really isn't fair or accurate to call all of us trans. If they're trans, then I guess I'm not, I'm something else. Or trans means something else entirely at this point.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional

Diabetes and a mental illness are two entirely different things.

I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

How do you provide hard evidence when all non-affirming research dies before it can even get off the ground?

most transsexuals don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology

If they acknowledged their biology, transitioning wouldn't work at all because they'd be aware of the fact that changing one's sex is impossible, and that they're not really doing a thing to change their sex.

I also wouldn't call a baseless belief in having a "female brain" (which I'm going to presume with 99% certainty that you also share because ofc) a healthy take.

and they suffer greatly

I suffer too when men tell me our oppression is just due to our feminine brains making us inferior.

Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society

The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life

The problem with this is that you're essentially telling all the gender nonconforming people that they have opposite sex brains and that they should stop being the nail that sticks out and just assimilate into society quietly in the appropriate patriarchal role expected of them so they don't make a scene. No, I don't want to "live quietly as a proper meek woman" because I don't base satisfaction with gender roles based on how much our patriarchal society recognises my "female brain" and approves of it.

We're distinct from that group of people and their problems

Not any longer you're not.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have a really good idea based on how they talk about their dysphoria, what made them dysphoric, how long they were dysphoric, if certain parts of their bodies made/make them dysphoric and in what ways, if they describe physical sensations of dysphoria or not, if they speak about it more socially or physically, if they were gnc as children and pretransition and in what ways, whether they describe themselves as being the opposite sex or if they're becoming the opposite sex. Physical sensations of dysphoria, described in ways similar to but not entirely exactly like phantom limb syndrome or body integrity disorder as though my sexual organs were spilling out of me and needed to be pushed back in, and having the conviction I was going to grow up to be a woman/mommy until I was 10 and realized that it probably wasn't going to happen as I learned I had a boy's body, and that's why people saw me as a boy, are my core experiences of gender dysphoria. I don't know what the concept of "waves" or bouts of gender dysphoria is like. That's not to say what other people are experiencing is not gender dysphoria, but the more you let someone speak in their own words about their experience, the better understanding you have of that person's level of discomfort and possible means of addressing the problem. The diagnosis likely needs revision so that people can't just run down a checklist of symptoms, and they can thoughtfully describe their gender dysphoria over a prolonged period of time.

I'm not saying anyone has suffered more or less than anyone else, this isn't about levels of suffering. It's about the experience of the suffering and how care can and should be individualized. I don't relate to these detransitioners and desistors because their description of their own gender dysphoria is missing key experiences of mine and includes parts I have never experienced.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I still don’t think you can measure their dysphoria compared to yours, and you can’t know what they don’t share or discuss, but I get what you’re saying and it makes more sense than most answers I got from qt/trans.

I think what is confusing me is you say elsewhere that you hate being trans, but say this was the best treatment for you. I guess I feel like if it’s the best treatment, you shouldn’t and wouldn’t hate that about yourself? I do believe that for some, srs and hormones alleviates a certain level of distress, but since it seems to not be a cure or even effective in alleviating more distress, and does nothing to address the mental aspect (other than alleviating some distress), it’s hard for me to accept that it’s the best option for anyone. I still think extensive therapy and if needed, hospitalization while you get extensive therapy, is better in the long run. If someone can’t fully embrace being trans and not say they wish they weren’t, I don’t feel they’ve been treated effectively, personally. You seem more level headed than other qt/trans people I interact with here, but you also still seem just as discontent as the ones who aren’t so level headed.

It kind of seems to me that you’re talking about a treatment for distress that causes you to feel suicidal, not so much a treatment for the actual condition that causes the distress? And I was more thinking of treatment for the dysphoria itself. Or I’m totally wrong idk but I appreciate your answers. They’re well thought out and articulate.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes, I do hate it, and yes, surgical and hormonal treatment was the best treatment for me. It stopped self mutilation and it stopped me from killing myself. I would have liked to have had a normal life living as my birth sex, and I guess I hate myself for not being able to live that way. I'd rather live a life that pleases everyone instead of offends people.

A lot of my discontent is from sharing gender critical views and seeing myself as deluded freak; not all the time, that's a largely a self esteem issue from growing up living in a world that made it clear in every way that I was a freak, was wrong and was not a good person. I didn't grow up in the pro-trans "yay! be transgender!" world we have now. I might not hate myself as much if I had, and for that reason I'm on one hand happy for actual trans kids growing up now, but on the other unhappy to see unchecked boundaries of access to treatment.

The physical distress and psychological distress has lead to self harm, and to a self hatred for being something I shouldn't be. As I said, the world has made it clear from early childhood to me that my perception of myself and self-image is delusional, that I am wrong and "bad" for being the way I am, and it is my fault for being this way. I tried to change my perception of myself and my self-image and ignore my physical sensations because I want to be "good" and normal, but nothing I did was working. I don't want to hurt anyone or offend anyone, and I didn't see a place for me in this world, so I didn't want to live. This is where I would extend some agreement with newer trans ideology, that a lot of the distress is from (classic) societal views and treatment. The overwhelming message growing up and internalized was "I am wrong, I don't belong, I am crazy, I am bad, I am sick, I am a freak, this world is not for me".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think this makes sense. I get why someone chooses to transition, I just think that there needs to be more effort to find a better solution/treatment. And I tend to think that the problem with finding alternative treatment lies in the fact that most people suffering don’t want to endure the process of finding a better treatment (which, again, I totally get why they wouldn’t be). I feel like any mental illness that professionals find ways to treat- the treatment can only be found by taking the time to explore alternatives, and that can take years, even decades. I can’t word well what I’m trying to say, but i mean finding effective treatment is trial and error and takes time, and since transition is an option, most patients aren’t willing to endure other methods. I don’t have an issue with adults having these surgeries, I think they’re a bit barbaric in all honesty and seem to come with a lot of potential complications and as I said I don’t think it treats anything but the bodily discomfort, and I think it does kind of feed the delusion (idk another word to use here and thought it might be okay since you used this word, sorry if I offend), but an informed adult should be able to whatever they want to their body. I just don’t think it should be referred to as treatment, because it doesn’t truly treat the full issue, it only seems to alleviate one aspect of it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with much of what you're saying. I would like to ask though, how is alleviation, even if of just one part, not considered treatment in your opinion? I'm not sure how you feel about psychiatric medication and whether they have a place in medicine, but if a medicine only alleviates some symptoms and has been most effective for someone, would you not consider that treatment? I'm just curious of your opinion and would like elaboration into your views on this if you don't mind.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is where I would extend some agreement with newer trans ideology, that a lot of the distress is from (classic) societal views and treatment.

A lot of GC people agree that our patriarchal society pushes people into transitioning (and other unhealthy gender roles) if they find they don't fit into a patriarchal category properly. GC just doesn't think that the solution to this is to give people drugs and plastic surgeries to make them fit into patriarchal categories better so they can have a peace of mind. Many minorities and women have had to and will have to deal with being treated as inferior, but they didn't make it their ideal to imitate something they're not so that society wouldn't disapprove of them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think that's the solution for that kind of distress either, that really should be reserved to treat classic transsexualism until better treatment is developed or discovered. And I agree, no one should have to imitate anything or anyone they aren't just to fit in.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Presumably therapy that does not enforce gendered thinking or encourage the creation of an artificial identity would help a lot but it’s treated as a hate crime.

Imo therapists should be exploring what man/woman means to the presenting patient, and correcting gendered ideas like ‘I’m a woman because I do abc female coded things or dislike xyz male coded things’.

Even suggesting anything other than immediate drugs and surgery is basically treated by laypeople as the same as suggesting bloodletting and a beating because transgender people declared themselves experts above all researchers and medical professionals.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Do you have any specific examples? I know research is lacking, but I'm curious if maybe you've found something I've overlooked. I understand criticism of current treatment methods, but I'm curious to know if anything else has ever actually worked, especially treating it as an adult.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

We don’t know what else might work because even suggesting anything other than immediately giving drugs and surgery is treated like suggesting war crimes.

Universities don’t engage in studies that might offend transgender people because it means less money for the university.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

The lack of funding and pushback on research has been a longstanding problem, first because no one wanted to acknowledge the legitimacy of transsexualism or gender dysphoria, and now for the opposite reason: because people want to know if better treatment exists or may be developed because it is being acknowledged as a legitimate condition and problem worthy of researching.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Nobody is researching better outcomes at all. The only thing being researched is new ways to make pseudo vaginas. Nobody is exploring treatments outside of hormones and rearranging genitals.

Pimozide has shown potential in ending feelings of gender dysphoria but is not explored. Therapy that does not affirm gender as legitimate is not explored.

The funding is going to charities like mermaids that target lonely children and indoctrinate them with extreme gendered ideas. There’s no lack of money for surgeons experimenting with new genital surgeries.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

More people might advocate for it and donate money to the cause as more people detransition or their gender dysphoria desists (hopefully I'm using that word right). That may take another 5-10 years. I'm not sure how long it takes for people to develop gender dysphoria from gender dysphoria treatment if it was never appropriate.

Out of curiosity, since there is no research that supports any other treatment that may be successful in alleviating transsexualism or severe early onset gender dysphoria, do you feel that procedures like SRS or HRT are appropriate or warranted in those circumstances since those are the only things that have been shown to reduce gender dysphoria or sex dysphoria?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don’t believe in srs or hormones as treatment at all. I consider it as ethical as a lobotomy. Surgery does not fix mental distress. It merely masks it.

What should be done is dedicated research into therapies that aid the patients ability to cope with mental incongruencies with their bodies, the way we do for eating disorder patients.

Idk what you mean by people developing gender dysphoria from gender dysphoria treatment 🤷🏼‍♀️

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

So I suppose this goes back to your first comment, about what you personally believe the treatment should be for gender dysphoria and transsexualism, which would be experimental in this context. Hopefully they would work! And hopefully research can be done to come up with better treatments.

What I meant is that a lot of people, but not all, desist or detransition because they feel that transition was not right for them and describe living as the opposite sex or gender as wrong for them, which is essentially a person with gender dysphoria's feelings about perceiving themselves as their natal sex. I suspect that for a lot of people where gender dysphoria treatment doesn't work and especially makes things worse, they didn't really have gender dysphoria or anything like transsexualism to begin with, so the traditional treatment feels wrong and does more harm than good.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean a lot of genital surgery is purely experimental, especially now that children are not experiencing puberty and then getting surgery on insufficient tissue like that tv boy, jazz Jennings. (Poor kid will never experience arousal or an orgasm cause he never developed the ability to, and his surgery was an experiment described as a patchwork quilt of tissues and has required extensive revision)

So you’re agreeing that surgery and hormones as first line treatment is far more harmful than helpful considering all the people who desist? That’s cool.

Long term therapy, (not like, thirty hours of answering questions and begrudging the therapist, “or I started CBT 27 days ago and it DOESNT WORK” bullshit. actual productive therapy the patient commits to and works at) is gonna do less harm than Lupron and weed out the patients who shouldn’t be encouraged to undergo cosmetic surgery. It’s better even if it’s just as experimental as the hormone blockers in healthy children is.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

describe living as the opposite sex or gender as wrong for them, which is essentially a person with gender dysphoria's feelings about perceiving themselves as their natal sex.

Two problems with this take:

  1. Assuming that "living as the opposite sex" is in any way related to what sex you are or feel as. I do not want to live as the opposite sex, I do not get validated by it, just the opposite. But I have to live that way, because I live in a patriarchal society. My lifetime living this way has unwillingly informed my (and everyone's) behaviour, but that does not make me more or less of a woman, it just explains my socialisation.

  2. Plastic surgeries and artificially induced hormone imbalance =/= living as the opposite sex. The fact remains that changing a person's sex is impossible in any way. It is ultimately a superficial change.

I suspect that for a lot of people where gender dysphoria treatment doesn't work and especially makes things worse, they didn't really have gender dysphoria or anything like transsexualism to begin with

So, what did they have, then? What are these mental disorders where a person feels extreme discomfort with their sex and the way they're perceived, why are they not described as anything other than "trans" by the medical community and moreover why are we obliged to validate it as "real trans" with no ifs or buts or else we're fascists for questioning their identity?

which is essentially a person with gender dysphoria's feelings about perceiving themselves as their natal sex

You're assuming that not responding to current trans treatment = not being real trans. Given that changing one's sex is impossible, I don't really see how many plastic surgeries a person gets as more or less valid to one's gender feelings. However, you might argue in turn that the validity of the trans label doesn't matter, only whether transition will help with whatever mental disorder the person has, and since regretting these extreme body modifications is the only way to tell who is "really" trans, you've now got a bunch of people who underwent destructive plastic surgeries and regretted it after the fact, but they can at least comfort themselves in the knowledge that they're not "real trans". Here you see why GC are so opposed to such widespread availability of trans treatment: you're obliged to validate whatever the patient says, treat it like "real trans" because they want different pronouns and then if they regret it later after feeling like they've mutilated themselves, shrug your shoulders and say "Guess you weren't really trans", despite trans being the only current explanation for these conditions.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Or you could just "morally mandate it [the problem of transsexualism] out of existence"

-the transexual empire, Janice Raymond.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t understand how morals come into therapy? Is self acceptance immoral? Is teaching it immoral? Do you think therapy would eliminate dysphoria so effectively that there would be no more transgendered people, thus therapy is somehow eliminating transgendered people from the world?

[–]bellatrixbells 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I believe you misunderstood that quote, unless I did. I think what it means is if you make it immoral to point out a given problem, then it disappears. Of course, it hasn't disappeared at all, but that's the entire reason why we criticize that entire ideology where asking questions is deemed immoral.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahh I getcha.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It depends on your sexual orientation. Seek the advice of those who were where you are now, but are now where you want to be. This goes for anything really.

Does "therapy" need elaboration? A lot of people (mostly women) get therapy nowadays, even people who don't seem to need it. If most desist then there is something hindering those who don't.

As far as I know "gender dysphoria" isn't real anymore. In the olden days it was customary to lay the blame of any mental health problems on gender non-conformity (which is a broad term that includes cross-gender identification), but now we know better.

Just have your therapy target your sexual identity rather than "gender".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was asking for elaboration, it "needing" elaboration is a question of semantics or philosophy. I'm just trying to keep focus on what my actual original question was: asking for documented evidence and examples of successful treatment for early onset transsexualism. People have offered their opinions on what they believe may be effective, what they feel may be effective, what they think others may be effective, their criticism of current treatment options, their beliefs and opinions on the concepts of gender and gender identity and gender dysphoria and transsexualism, but no one has offered what I originally actually asked for. As I'm pushing for what I actually asked for, I seem to be getting met with a resounding "we don't have that information, but it exists and you need to find it yourself", or "we have that information, but we aren't going to share it".

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If only academia was open to researching any topic related to trans and gender ideologies without being shut down for being bigoted terfs.

The majority of minors who have dysphoria outgrow it. Those who don't would likely benefit from cognitive behavioural therapy, radical acceptance of their bodies, and abolishment of ideologies correlating sex stereotypes and/or physical discomfort with 'gender'.

We don't cut peoples limbs off when they think they believe they should be amputees. We dont allow anorexics to starve themselves to death because they think theyre fat. Why should making a mockery of physical sex be the solution to people who feel disconnected with their biological reality?

Humans are resilient. Mental issues, particularly about taboo gender ideology, is under-researched. That doesnt mean affirmative therapy is the best option.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Do you have any examples of where CBT, radical acceptance of bodies and abolishment of ideologies that you spoke of have worked for adults with early onset transsexualism or HSTS? While I appreciate the conjecture and don't think you're necessarily wrong in that they may help some, I'm more curious to know what has been demonstrated to be effective.

I can appreciate that viewpoint, and I agree with much of what you say. In the absence of research and studies that support alternate forms of treatment, would you ever suggest treatment such as SRS and HRT to treat such extreme dysphoria?

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Honestly I think adults can choose to pursue these options if they please and if they pay out of pocket. That said, I don't think SRS or HRT means they can access spaces made for opposite sex, and I especially don't see these as viable solutions for minors.

I wish more research was done, but you must be aware of how limited gender critical views are in academia? Still we can draw parallels and conclusions, and further there are studies showing similarities of transgenders with their statistics of their natural sex, as well as detransitioner anecdotes. I don't see why gender dysphoria would be all that different than dysmorphia or any other similar disorder.

Why is sex seen as maleable but race and age isn't? These are basic demographics. It doesn't make sense to feed delusions. But again, if consenting adults wish to, it's their bodies and their money. It just seems cosmetic.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The debate and criticism of gender and sex being a changeable trait seems moot in the context of treating gender dysphoria or transsexualism if the treatment provides relief and no other form of treatment has proven as reliably successful, even if only due to lack of research. I would like to not have this condition, but no amount of mental gymnastics, therapy or antipsychotics have quashed this delusion, if one would call it that. If something worked better than SRS, HRT and living as the sex that one sees oneself as, I would truly like to know.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the general consensus is that lifelong dysphoria persisting from childhood into adulthood may be intractable. If you've already tried therapy of various types and your dysphoria is still present, there may be nothing else medical professionals can do.

That doesn't mean we should stop researching. Obviously, less extreme, less risky interventions would be preferable to hormones and surgeries. I have concerns about the dangers of medical transition. But at some point, people have to weigh quality of life issues. If your quality of life is poor or non-existent because of the dysphoria, the risks may be worth it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sorry, but your questions are impossible to intelligently answer coz "gender dysphoria" is not one thing. "Gender dysphoria" which really just means "distress/discomfort about your sex" (aka DAYS) varies considerably depending on a person's sex; the age at which it started; whether you are same-sex attracted, heterosexual or bi; and - especially in males - how bound up it is, or has become, in your sexual fantasies, solo masturbation habits and sexual behaviors with others.

I tried lots of forms of therapy and medication, abused drugs and sought solace in clean, healthy living to try to cure myself. None of it touched my conviction and self perception.

From what you said in other posts, it sounds like you haven't stuck with any therapy for very long - and medical providers have unfortunately put you on a whole lot of psychiatric drugs. Sorry to say, it also sounds like you are looking for quick fixes. Therapy that, in my opinion, could be of help to you is a long-term process, one that doesn't provide or involve an immediate or even short-term cessation of pain.

There's an old saying about therapy, first you feel more, including more pain, and only after that do you begin to feel better.

A request: please don't call cross-sex hormones and hormone suppressants such as puberty blockers or anti-androgens that people take for trans-related reasons "HRT." I think trans people would find it offensive, and understandably so, if women started calling the double mastectomies, oophorectomies and hysterectomies that some of us have for reasons having nothing at all to do with "trans" as "SRS." I wish people who take exogenous cross-sex hormones and blockers would show women, particularly older women, respect by coming up with your own term for what you are doing rather than appropriating HRT from women.

I suggest reading some Carl Jung and Karen Horney. Good luck.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes! Transsexualism, expanding into Gender Identity Disorder, expanding into Gender Dysphoria was specifically meant to accommodate people who weren't classically transsexual, but so that they could access and receive treatment reserved for transsexualism, or as you say, "distress/discomfort about your sex". I will admit, this condition is so awful I did indeed do anything I could to get rid of it, or quick fixes. It seems as if you believe that had I taken less medication and more therapy that my condition could have been improved or cured, which is a possibility--but without research, who knows? Do you have a specific form of therapy in mind that may be of help to me? I should actually disclose that I have been consistenly in therapy still yet for the past six years to address various problems and symptoms of trauma, much of which has been attributed to growing up with untreated transsexualism. And I agree that indeed therapy is most effective and beneficial when followed through in this manner. I personally don't find it offensive if you call any procedure anything, I don't have attachment to the names. HRT is what all medical professionals and researchers named it and call it, and I understand that it upsets you. I'm not sure what you would like me to call it, but I would like to ask if you could elaborate on how and why you find it disrespectful. I'm sorry if what I said offended you, I was just referring to the treatment the way that medical professionals named it and call it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems as if you believe that had I taken less medication and more therapy that my condition could have been improved or cured

Please don't think I am faulting you for taking medication. I'm not, at all. You only did as medical professionals told or advised you to do. As most of us would do, and most of us have done.

I just think that since the 1980s, mental health professionals have relied way too much on medications - and that many of the psych meds on the market have done more harm than good for a large number of people who've been on them. This is especially the case for people put on psych meds in childhood or the teen years, before the brain has had a chance to fully develop.

I dunno if any one of us is ever fully cured of the psychological conditions that trouble us, particularly if we had troubled or traumatic childhoods. Sometimes our conditions go into remission, only to rear their heads again. But I do think perhaps you - and many other people - might have been helped to better manage your distress, and to lessen it and learn to deal with it in healthier ways, if mental health professionals offered better forms of therapy and emotional support instead of just meds and gender ideology.

Also, age seems to be a cure for a lot of "gender issues" that plagued people when young. By age here, I don't just mean adolescence and early adulthood. I mean middle and old age. AGPs seem to get worse with age, coz they're dealing with what seems to be an ever-worsening form of addiction. But a lot of same-sex attracted persons who developed distress over their sex in childhood seem to come to terms with it later in life as middle age sets in, sometimes sooner. Like that famous actor who in Sweden was the "poster child" for male-to-female transsexualism for years, and now after adamantly insisting he was a woman for ages, he says he realizes he's a gay man who was never masculine and if he had to do his life over again, he'd just live as a gay man without the surgeries and cross-sex hormones. Now he "identifies as" a gay man whose body has been feminized by cross-sex hormones and surgeries.

As to my kvetching about HRT: I'm really not "upset" or "offended" by your/the trans community's use of the term, so no need to apologize. I've dealt with much worse things and experienced all sorts of disrespect in my life. I'm more annoyed by what I see as the hypocrisy when it comes to "HRT" than personally upset and offended.

I just think it's only fair to ask that trans people and gender ideologues - who are so quick to insist that others bend over backwards not to hurt their feelings - come up with new terms of your own for that suit your situation. Instead of stealing terms created by/for specific groups and certain situations, then changing the meaning of the terms entirely as has been done not only with HRT, but with AFAB/AMAB. To me, this is adding insult to injury - or rather, adding obfuscation to appropriation.

HRT is short for "hormone replacement therapy." It's usually used to refer to exogenous estrogen (or combo meds like Estratest of yore) prescribed to women during/after menopause, oophorectomy or ovarian failure caused by disease to replace the estrogen levels our ovaries previously made. By the strict definition, people who take insulin for diabetes, synthetic thyroid hormone for Hashimoto's, and exogenous T for testicular disease, after orchiectomy, or for the bogus diagnosis "low T" could be said to be on HRT as well. Coz in each case, they are replacing hormones their bodies are supposed to make under conditions of normal health.

But people who take sex hormones, and/or hormone-blocking meds, for "gender identity" issues are not on HRT. Such people are not replacing sex hormones in the concentrations that their bodies naturally make, are supposed to make, or once made. Trans people are taking sex hormones in the quantities that only persons of the opposite sex would naturally make. What's more, male trans people often take androgen blockers for the purpose of suppressing the hormones naturally made by their male gonads, the testes. This is the exact opposite of HRT!

Is it really so hard to understand why many women would find it offensive for physically healthy adults, particularly males but females as well, who choose to take medically unnecessary sex hormones in concentrations meant to mimic the hormone profiles of opposite sex, and hormone suppressants as well, in order to achieve cosmetic changes coz of "gender issues" to appropriate from women the name devised for a female-only medical treatment meant for women in/after menopause or following surgeries or disease that caused us to lose our ovaries or our ovaries to fail? To me, trans people calling their use of hormonal intervention HRT is akin to someone who loves riding around on an ATV sports vehicle for fun calling their ATV a "mobility scooter." It's appropriation and punching down that shows total lack of awareness of other people with real medical issues and and lack of empathy for them. Sorta like the way in many public places, ramps meant for wheelchair users and handrails meant for people with balance problems have all been taken over by kids on skateboards.

Back to the topic of therapy: I think the most effective for everyone is long-term psychoanalytically oriented "talk therapy" with a therapist well versed in a wide variety of schools of thought and therapeutic approaches but who isn't wedded to any one way. And who doesn't buy into gender ideology, or advocate sexism, sex stereotypes, wrecking your endocrine system and radically changing your body the way today's "gender therapists" do. As practiced by thoughtful therapists such as Sasha Ayad and Lisa Marchiano. But of course, that kind of therapy is not available everywhere, nor is it affordable for a lot of people.

The fact that you say you have been therapy for six years

to address various problems and symptoms of trauma, much of which has been attributed to growing up with untreated transsexualism

Suggests to me that you need better therapists. Coz I don't think any is born with, or naturally develops, "transsexualism," and therefore I don't think it's possible for a child to "grow up with untreated transsexualism." Going trans is a decision people make to deal with the condition some call "gender dysphoria" and I call DAYS, meaning "distress about your sex." Transition is a treatment, or an attempt at a treatment, not the condition. Just like chemotherapy, surgery, radiation and bone marrow transplants are treatments for and responses to cancer; they are not diseases themselves.

There are all sorts of reasons a person might feel distress about their sex - including trauma - just as there are all sorts of reasons someone might develop clinical depression, paralyzing anxieties, OCD, BDD and so on. But to have the hope of lessening whatever kind of distress we as individuals suffer from, we have to understand what the causes and contributing factors of our distress are. (I say "causes" plural coz IMO, most human unhappiness and mental illnesses have multiple causes operating in concert.)

There are many books out there that show the failings - and sometimes looniness - of the psychiatry and the helping professions. I recommend the memoirs I'm Dancing As Fast As I Can; Girl Interrupted and Running With Scissors (which is hilarious).

I also recommend Anatomy of An Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America," Crazy Like Us and the works of such iconoclasts in the field of psychiatry as Thomas Szasz. And one of the great books about human psychology - and suffering and survival - of all time, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. (Excuse the sexist title; it's reflective of the fact that it was first published in the 1950s, and the author was born in 1905).

Again, good luck! And best wishes.

[–]censorshipment 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

Why examples in academia or journals? How about listening to "detransitioners" and "desisters"? Just watch YouTube vlogs. Don't need therapists explaining shit to you. Cut out the middleman and go straight to the source. 😁

https://youtu.be/E3-yFcuViv4

Didn't watch the video... I can't stand listening to men. It's a detrans MTF video.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I do watch a lot of YouTube vlogs from detransitioners and desisters, I really like watching them a lot actually. I haven't found anyone who has desisted or detransitioned who grew up with that extreme classic gender dysphoria/transsexualism though. Do you have any recommendations? Most seem to have developed gender dysphoria in adolescence as teenagers or older children, or even as adults. I've been looking for one I relate to more. They've definitely helped convince me that transition is not right for everyone and can really do serious harm sometimes.

If alternate forms of therapy should be a method of treatment, why wouldn't I want to listen to what therapists have to say on the matter? Just because someone online said that a medication didn't work for them doesn't mean it wouldn't work for another and the person should really be consulting their doctor rather than other peoples' anecdotes.

edit: I just clicked the link. I actually watched his videos a few days ago, they were quite interesting and he's very articulate. Unfortunately, he didn't experience "classic" early onset transsexualism and I can't really relate to his experience of gender dysphoria (or sex dysphoria, or lack thereof rather) and it clearly wasn't best for him to have transitioned. Thank you for sharing that link though!

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think girls and boys are very different when it comes to dysphoria.

Most detransitioners are female and had puberty-onset dysphoria. There don't seem to be quite as many detransitioned men around. This man transitioned at 19, but I don't know if he had genital dysphoria stemming from childhood. He doesn't appear to have gotten surgery.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8195531/Man-transitioned-living-girl-says-woman-wrong-reasons.html

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thank you for sharing this article! Even though he transitioned when he was a young adult in a time before the transgender boom, I found this line interesting: "Looking back now, I realize I never felt like a woman." He said he was a chubby gay boy who felt uncomfortable and thought being a woman would be easier.

I think the language that children, adolescents and adults use to describe their feelings of dysphoria are really informative and might help to narrow down and tailor treatment more to the individual, paying special attention to how the person perceives themselves. Like, like someone who grows up insisting they are the opposite sex is very different than someone who sees themself as becoming the opposite sex (or gender). Most children do grow out of those beliefs and most adolescents don't feel some kind of discomfort with their bodies or sex until puberty starts. We will probably see more and more people detransition as time goes on until enough people call attention to it and question how right medical transition is, unfortunately. Research probably won't be seriously conducted until then.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

He was never medically diagnosed either, which is the same thing that is happening now. We're already beginning to see a surge of desisters and detransitioners who self diagnosed and/or did not meet any clinical definition for transsexuality.

Unfortunately, activists seem hell bent on preventing research into these groups. Which is so fucked up. If activists really and truly cared about protecting gender nonconforming kids, they would want to prevent children from being sterilized or having their bodies and voices permanently altered if there was any chance, let alone a good chance, that such drastic measures would be unnecessary.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Interesting! But sad at the same time, hopefully he's living a better life now for having experienced that.

I think it's going to take the "in" status and legitimacy of transsex people to be a key factor in fighting against the advocacy. Maybe it's not totally necessary, and it's certainly not expected, but it would be nice if critics of the transgender activists would help us by at least recognizing and acknowledging the existence of actual trans people though. Many actual trans people would and do support most critics of the trans rights activism, but we feel that they are unapproachable because we are often included with the people who are called trans, but really aren't--or at least not transsex. I think the sooner we can learn to all team up and work together, the sooner this harmful trans rights monstrosity can go away.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think GC people should form alliances with GC-leaning and old-school transsexuals. We don't have to be enemies. This wave of animosity between radical feminists and the trans community is fairly new, and I think for the most part it's due to this recent wave of trans activism.

The main problem I see is that bridges have been burned. I'm active on Ovarit, and most women there are just entirely fed up. The social climate isn't like it was 10 or even 5 years ago. There's hostility not just towards the badly behaved activists, but towards trans people in general. I wish that weren't the case. I think it can reverse, but it's going to take a lot of work, and that just isn't going to happen when the public face of the trans movement consists of people like Chase Strangio and Grace Lavery.

the existence of actual trans people

To be fair, it is common for GC people to believe that there are no actual trans people, in the sense that because biological sex is fixed, you can't actually transition out of your birth sex. But I think most do differentiate between old-school transsexuals and fetishists/trenders. I do see some try to argue that HSTS transsexuals are just homophobic, appropriating gay men, but I think it's a minority view. I certainly don't feel that way. I believe transsexuals suffer from legitimate mental distress that in rare cases may be helped by hormones and surgeries. It doesn't make them women, but it also doesn't just make them effeminate gay men. They're their own category.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Unfortunately, he didn't experience "classic" early onset transsexualism and I can't really relate to his experience of gender dysphoria (or sex dysphoria, or lack thereof rather) and it clearly wasn't best for him to have transitioned. Thank you for sharing that link though!

Maya Kaye is a MtF transsexual who had childhood sex distress, medically and surgically transitioned, and is now moving beyond... Maya has many thoughtful videos on Maya's YT channel. https://youtu.be/erFBKAFNzJ0

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've watched a couple of Maya's videos before and enjoyed them, thank you! I'll have to watch more. But from what I have seen, a small but significant distinction I would like to point out is that even as a child with gender dysphoria, they didn't believe they were a girl or the opposite sex, but rather wanted to become one/transition at such a young age, which I find interesting--it varies from my experience of believing I was a girl who was going to grow up to be a woman, until I was about 10 and discovered that I wasn't. Maya's personality precludes that, and I've found that commonality among all detransitioners I've seen or read about. None of them actually from the very beginning believed they were already the opposite sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

BTW, I read your account on the other thread where you explained your experience growing up. Sorry, it came off to me like retconning. I don't find it credible that until age 10 you didn't know the difference between males and females and thought you were female. We all tell ourselves stories about our childhoods to explain what happened later and how we ended up where we are in life. But as good therapists helps their clients see, there's often a big difference between the stories we tell ourselves about our childhoods and what really happened... Centra questions to ask is, why is it that we "remember" the events in our childhoods in a certain way? How does believing the narrative that's gotten fixed in our minds help us? And how does it hinder us?

BTW, if you have siblings, how does their account jibe with and differ from yours? What does/did your mother and father and other adults who were there say?

I'll explain more on the other thread.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I respect your skepticism. But yes, if you want me to elaborate on any of that, I'd be glad to for clarity's sake.

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have seen many female detransitioners state that learning about second wave feminism aka radical feminism, went a long way in alleviating their dysphoria and gender confusion.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen that too, it's really interesting. The more I learn about GC radical feminism, and the more people who destransition I see, the more I see that most people who are considered trans now are not really trans, and transition-related treatment is quite harmful for those who aren't trans.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish there were. I feel like there should be more study about it and that shouldn’t be so taboo. The only thing that seems to work for people is desistance, but that’s not really a treatment, just something that happens naturally for some people. It’s super important that kids have time to desist. I feel like what we call trans now is multiple things too so what might help with one cause wouldn’t help with another. I wish we were moving to a future where fewer boys and girls were trans, but it feels like we’re going in the opposite direction. At least like teach children that it’s okay to be however they are regardless of their sex and that there’s not right way to a girl or boy.

[–]cupidscupidity 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The closest thing I've got is this paper ("A New Theory of Gender Dysphoria Incorporating the Distress, Social Behavioral, and Body-Ownership Networks"). It was unfortunately retracted since it sparked some controversy, so I dunno if it's actually worth anything, but I'll offer it up as food for thought.

This piece discusses the paper and its retraction, and it's not really relevant to your question, but it does quote the initial version of the paper before it was corrected, which I'll also quote here:

“The use of gender reassignment as a therapy is sometimes motivated on the assumption that the distress is due to the individuals having a brain sex different than their gender assigned at birth and that the desire to change genders is based on a correct sense of true gender (...) Our new theory furthers the discussion regarding biologically-based treatments independent of gender identity affirmation that might address distress and body ownership in individuals with gender dysphoria. (...) treatments based on our new theory could instead involve targeting the distress and/or body ownership networks, perhaps specifically seeking to restore a sense of ownership over body parts perceived as incongruous.”

Of course there's nothing in the way of actual treatment here since the paper itself was just discussing a theory rather than anything in practice, but I thought it was pretty interesting to read about.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing!

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for sharing this! I very much appreciate it

[–]cupidscupidity 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hi again, I just remembered this post by a doctor (?) on the detrans subreddit. He discusses how he treats gender dysphoria in a way that's different from HRT... It seems all experimental and doesn't seem to be backed up by any studies (he does post some studies in the post but they don't specifically discuss what he wrote about) so I'd take it with a grain of salt, but still, food for thought, I guess.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing! That was really interesting. I see what you are saying though, he cites sources, but it sounds like much of what he's doing is experimental, based on what information is available.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm asking because gender dysphoria has severe throughout my entire life, complete with repeated self-mutilation from childhood into adulthood, and the conviction from the age of five that I was going to grow up to be a woman that never went away, even though I knew it was delusional and crazy.

OP, as a general rule, if you are serious about getting feedback you might find insightful and helpful, please always let other people know when you were born and where (country or at least the region of the world) you grew up. Coz from your posts it's not at all clear.

But why we develop distress over certain things such as our sex, and how we deal this distress, is very much shaped by the time period and culture in which we grew up and continue to live. And our ability to get perspective on our own unhappiness and mental health issues is very much affected by how old we are as well.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry, that's a really good point and would help give context. I was born in 1988, so I'm 32, and was born and grew up in a rural area in the Midwest, USA until moving to another city in another state at age 15, where I've mostly remained since.

I'm not sure where to share it, but for more context I wrote a somewhat detailed history; I also have a very detailed video of me giving my whole life story basically (it's quite long, but it's there if you'd like the most context possible) https://youtu.be/CL-f5d2i5tA

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know if I should be considered GC or not, seeing the degree of opinions sometimes expressed, but I'll just clarify what I guess is my middle ground position. I have no problem with people getting surgery if they find it helpful. I hope we can continue to do research to find less invasive methods of help, but if it is currently the best option for some, I accept that and support everyone finding a solution to pain.

My main concern is that we keep categories clear in official documents, medical records, statistics, and any places where physical difference matters like sports, shelters, prisons, etc. We could add an "asterisk" category in some cases, like the requirements in the army - if you're post op/ on hormones, then you don't have to meet standard male requirements but MTF ones to be an infantryman.

Still, the category of "woman" should be kept specific to people who have bodies that incorporate female reproductive systems - bodies that carry eggs, have extra internal organs to release them, wombs that will grow them, stuff like that. Men don't have that even if they transition, and even when it's not working, infertile women still have to make room for most of it.

I don't think kids should make major body choices before they finish developing so I would hope we could concentrate on encouraging body acceptance / gay acceptance until adulthood. At that point anyone still struggling with dysphoria could start looking at surgical options since it is their body, but I would still not want to promote it as a cure or idealized answer. I just don't think there's a clear understanding of what's being done and a lot of fantasy about what may happen at this stage - which may be all people want, permission to disassociate and fantasize in public. IN itself that is not terrible, except for when it conflicts with reality directly, ie, someone cannot win a women's scholarship just because they are playing a "woman". It has to be understood that there are limitations...

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Since you’ve now opened it to all. I’ve never seen evidence of any and nothing was effective when I was trying to avoid transition myself.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thank you for responding! Yeah, I'm sorry for not making it open to everyone in the title, I'm still new and not the smartest in the world. If I may ask, how to you feel about transitioning now having done it? How much do you feel it has helped you, and is there anything you regret?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

My mental health is substantially improved with transition, though still not great. If I have a regret it’s not doing it earlier.

That being said I wish I was cis and struggle a lot with the fact that I don’t pass and am generally kind of seen and treated as a freak most places and the I’m almost certainly never going to have a partner now. But I’ve changed what I could reasonably change and I’m much happier in my body now, despite the social cost.

I am no longer suicidal and no longer feel disgusted by existing in my body. But still am sad with the social context and the fact I am ugly. So mixed bag with general improvement I would say.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I relate with much of your experience, I'm sorry you feel sad and still struggle with some things. If I may ask, how long ago did you transition? Or start start transition?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hormones I think 7 years now. And I had bottom surgery almost 2 years ago.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh OK, so quite a while! We've really had similar experiences in a lot of ways then. Thank you so much for opening up and sharing about yourself and experiences!

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not a problem at all.