GC: Are there specific alternative treatments to SRS and HRT that have proven effective for successfully treating the most severe forms of gender dysphoria or transsexualism?

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I appreciate your response and views, thank you. This is sort of a general commentary addressed to everyone who's responded or is reading this thread, but you and the other respondents have shared your personal opinions on current treatment and your personal opinions and speculation as to what might be more effective treatment. No one has shared any evidence of more effective treatment as an alternative to SRS or HRT; someone said to watch desistors' vlogs on YouTube, which is the closest thing to any actual evidence or examples. Speculation and opinions are fabulous, but they aren't really helpful in relation to what I originally asked.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Respectfully, I feel like we’ve literally said therapy... so many times. Does it help if we say extensive therapy? Psychoanalysis? Trauma treatment, if applicable? Does it help if we clarify that we mean therapy that doesn’t include gender affirmation?

Therapy doesn’t just exist in a therapist’s office. You have to be taught coping mechanisms, acceptance (I don’t mean body acceptance, I mean accepting the reality of your sex) and all sorts of different ways to deal with what you’re feeling and thinking. You also have to be willing to apply what is taught and discussed in therapy outside of therapy. I disagree that what’s being said isn’t helpful- pointing out that transition leaves a lot unresolved is pretty relevant imo.

I also said the other conditions a trans person is likely to have should be treated before resorting to transitioning.

And clearly if desistors and detransitioners exist, there are alternative treatments. They told you to watch those videos and listen to those people because... they got treated.

Questioning the effectiveness of what you consider treatment is relevant. So is pointing out that other treatments are all but banned.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Honestly, I was hoping to see studies, things I'd missed in my own research, that had been shown to be specifically effective for treating early onset transsexualism/HSTS, the same way or better than how SRS/HRT/cross sex living has been studied. I was asking for solid evidence and examples of success for treating that form of gender dysphoria. Those YouTube videos are very interesting and I think can be helpful to many, I haven't been able to find any detransitioners or desistors that grew up with that extreme sex dysphoria; they may exist, it remains to be seen by me unless anyone has any suggestions.

I appreciate the feelings and opinions on the matter, but I was really hoping (and asking) for facts.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Okay but are you willing to answer my questions?

Eta- how can you measure a detransitioner’s or desistor’s level of dysphoria? You can’t possibly know how severe something is for someone else. The fact remains there are people who found other ways to treat dysphoria, you can’t just dismiss them because you don’t think they suffered as much as you. They may have, but don’t consider it as severe even if it was, because they were able to treat it differently. Scale of 1-10, you could say 8 and I could say 5 and we could be in the same level of pain, you can’t measure it for someone else any more than they can for you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Re being suicidal- suicidal people should be hospitalized, not given hormones and surgery. I know nobody wants to be confined to a hospital, but many people with other mental health issues have to be. And as we’ve seen, transitioning doesn’t alway guarantee you feel better- again I refer to detrans and the suicide rate not dropping. If existing in your body as it developed naturally makes you want to die, you should be monitored and hospitalized until thats not the case. Anyone else who threatens suicide or is suicidal would be hospitalized and monitored, why are trans people the exception? As I’ve said before Idgaf what adults do to their bodies, I’m asking for discussion’s sake, why a physically healthy person who has a mental condition that makes them literally hate their own body to the extent that they want to kill themselves for no reason other than the sex they were born should be operated on rather than hospitalized and put in therapy?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

There's suicidiality, suicidal gestures and suicide itself. A lot of people who commit suicide successfully don't give any outward indication they were going to do so. From my experience, it was going to be successful, I would have made sure of it. I wanted to die, why would I have committed myself? I knew I was crazy and there was no cure other than surgical, hormonal and socially "transitioning". And when I explained finally to therapists that feeling the way I did made me want to die, the professionals turned to what research suggests, which is surgical, hormonal and social "transition". Since those are the suggestions in research and medicine, why wouldn't the professionals tell me that's what I need? I suppose you could call it a failure on the part of the medical community and scientists and researchers as a whole, but that's all there is, whether one believes it's best or not. Research and medical opinion on transsexualism doesn't call for people with those symptoms to be hospitalized; if one believes that's the best course of action, genuinely, perhaps one should advocate actively to the medical community itself or pay for research to be done that would support their beliefs. To claim treatment should be something else based on personal belief without compiling evidence themselves and backing up what they claim, or funding research into the believed method of treatment, or actively doing the research themselves, is lazy. How can anyone take seriously what someone is claiming if they're not making any sort of effort to back up their claim? What's being presented is vague and nonspecific, and entirely based on conjecture.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I do honestly think it’s a failure of the medical community. I think it’s absurd that people with this condition that are suicidal aren’t hospitalized. And I think it’s even more absurd to have a treatment that is so drastic and invasive for other people be the standard treatment. But I don’t agree that what I’m saying is lazy- I’m not a scientist. It’s not on me to find an alternative for you or others similar to you, but I can see the flaws in the treatment that they receive. I never said transition doesn’t help some people, I said it doesn’t seem to treat anything other than distress over your body, and even then, only sometimes. It seems very clear to me that it doesn’t treat and often worsens the mental aspect (by worsen, I mean to say it seems to pushes the patient deeper into the belief that they are something that they literally just are not). I’m not basing what I’m saying on personal belief, my personal belief is it’s your body do what you want to it, I’m basing it on the overwhelming evidence that it’s not treating much besides distress and the “social transitioning” puts a lot of responsibility on people that shouldn’t have to be involved. This treatment causes issues for many trans people and many people who aren’t trans, so to me it’s just not effective in the long run.

My issue is not the surgeries on their own, it’s that I think anyone getting these procedures should have to acknowledge the truth of the situation (that they are not transitioning into the opposite sex/gender, and that this surgery is intended to alleviate dysphoria- it’s not a sex change, and they shouldn’t expect the general public to make exceptions for them or pretend they are something they aren’t, they should have to agree to respect the boundaries of others, imo- it’s basically what I commented on another post).

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't think you're being personally lazy, I'm sorry if the way I worded that implied that. You've been making thoughtful points and observations. I guess maybe a way I can put it is, because I know that I am not an expert or medical professional, I personally don't feel it's my place or it's appropriate for me to give medical advice or suggestions to anyone. I can talk about my opinions or thoughts based on what I've read, and I can question a treatment or medical advice, but I don't feel I really have a right to criticize or condemn or advocate something without understanding it fully. I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional, I feel I have no place giving advice about diabetes to anyone other than "I don't know, ask a professional". Similarly, even though I've experienced clinical anxiety and have experience with treatment and treatment of others, I don't feel comfortable nor feel it's appropriate for me to condemn or advocate for specific courses of treatment. I simply admit, despite learning some things about these, I really don't know what I'm talking about. But I certainly have my opinions and ideas based on what I do know, or at least think I know. But really I'm dumb when it comes to these things.

I really really really don't mean to insult or condescend to you or anyone here, I'm just trying to reiterate that I understand a place for opinions and thoughts on subjects and appreciate them in their own right, but I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

I can appreciate your thoughts on these procedures, and I respect them, but I am also trying to get across that most transsexuals--the people who these treatments were originally intended for--don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology, and they suffer greatly. Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society, and they don't "identify" as anything and don't see themselves "transtitioning" to another gender or sex. The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life (as much as they could anyway). They idea that people weaponize transgender rights and laws and push it on others is abhorrent to me. That's not me, and I don't think it's most transsexuals. I wish we weren't conflated with whatever and whoever it was that the people who are like that and do act like that are. We're distinct from that group of people and their problems, and it really isn't fair or accurate to call all of us trans. If they're trans, then I guess I'm not, I'm something else. Or trans means something else entirely at this point.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't experience diabetes and I'm not a professional

Diabetes and a mental illness are two entirely different things.

I was asking for hard evidence and specific evidence and examples in my original post.

How do you provide hard evidence when all non-affirming research dies before it can even get off the ground?

most transsexuals don't believe they are transitioning to anything, and they are not changing their sex, and they acknowledge their biology

If they acknowledged their biology, transitioning wouldn't work at all because they'd be aware of the fact that changing one's sex is impossible, and that they're not really doing a thing to change their sex.

I also wouldn't call a baseless belief in having a "female brain" (which I'm going to presume with 99% certainty that you also share because ofc) a healthy take.

and they suffer greatly

I suffer too when men tell me our oppression is just due to our feminine brains making us inferior.

Actual transsexuals want to blend in and not be noticed and indistinguishable from everyone else in society

The original laws and procedures were meant to help these people live a quiet, normal life

The problem with this is that you're essentially telling all the gender nonconforming people that they have opposite sex brains and that they should stop being the nail that sticks out and just assimilate into society quietly in the appropriate patriarchal role expected of them so they don't make a scene. No, I don't want to "live quietly as a proper meek woman" because I don't base satisfaction with gender roles based on how much our patriarchal society recognises my "female brain" and approves of it.

We're distinct from that group of people and their problems

Not any longer you're not.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

-"Diabetes and a mental illness are two entirely different things." Should the advice really change if diabetes was replaced with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder? I don't know that the semantics really mattered there, but thank you for pointing that out. -"How do you provide hard evidence when all non-affirming research dies before it can even get off the ground?" I guess everyone needs to keep pushing and advocating for research and funding research then if any studies of that nature are to be done. I'll certainly keep pushing for it, and I hope you might too. -"If they acknowledged their biology, transitioning wouldn't work at all because they'd be aware of the fact that changing one's sex is impossible, and that they're not really doing a thing to change their sex.

I also wouldn't call a baseless belief in having a "female brain" (which I'm going to presume with 99% certainty that you also share because ofc) a healthy take." I might be disagreeing with a lot of people here, but I understand that the sex isn't really being changed. Sexual organs and secondary characteristics may be altered, but I agree with you personally, no one really changes sex. I think that again part of the greater misunderstanding of transsexualism comes down to semantics. I recognize that my sex can't really change, yet I had to change my primary sex characteristics to relieve the distress. I'm also going to dissent by admitting I don't believe in such a thing as a "male" or "female" brain. -"I suffer too when men tell me our oppression is just due to our feminine brains making us inferior." I'm sorry that men do that to you and talk to you that way, that's infuriating. Our shared experiences of the feelings of suffering, though perhaps for different reasons, may hopefully facilitate greater empathy and compassion for one another. -"The problem with this is that you're essentially telling all the gender nonconforming people that they have opposite sex brains and that they should stop being the nail that sticks out and just assimilate into society quietly in the appropriate patriarchal role expected of them so they don't make a scene. No, I don't want to "live quietly as a proper meek woman" because I don't base satisfaction with gender roles based on how much our patriarchal society recognises my "female brain" and approves of it." There really seems to be quite an array of gender noncomformity expression and experiences, and I think they deserve to live a good life without having to assimilate if they don't want to. I think that's a positive of the development of the concept of transgenderism and the fact that the "transgender" spectrum now has high visibility in society and includes gender nonconforming people, normalizing gender nonconforming expression more. I don't think you or anyone should have to live any way you don't want to, as long as no one is being hurt. For me, I probably want to live a quiet, normal life more because I was harassed, teased and abused for most of it, I abused myself trying to do everything to cure my delusion so I wouldn't hate myself because I really wanted to be normal so badly; now my life isn't ruled by this condition anymore and I finally do have some peace. I hope that you're living the life you want to live, too. -"Not any longer you're not." The preceding sentence says 'I wish we weren't conflated with whatever and whoever it was that the people who are like that and do act like that are.' because I know that is how you and others see me, which is why I'm trying to make it clear that we aren't.

(sorry for the quote format, I haven't learned how to Saidit quite yet lol)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have a really good idea based on how they talk about their dysphoria, what made them dysphoric, how long they were dysphoric, if certain parts of their bodies made/make them dysphoric and in what ways, if they describe physical sensations of dysphoria or not, if they speak about it more socially or physically, if they were gnc as children and pretransition and in what ways, whether they describe themselves as being the opposite sex or if they're becoming the opposite sex. Physical sensations of dysphoria, described in ways similar to but not entirely exactly like phantom limb syndrome or body integrity disorder as though my sexual organs were spilling out of me and needed to be pushed back in, and having the conviction I was going to grow up to be a woman/mommy until I was 10 and realized that it probably wasn't going to happen as I learned I had a boy's body, and that's why people saw me as a boy, are my core experiences of gender dysphoria. I don't know what the concept of "waves" or bouts of gender dysphoria is like. That's not to say what other people are experiencing is not gender dysphoria, but the more you let someone speak in their own words about their experience, the better understanding you have of that person's level of discomfort and possible means of addressing the problem. The diagnosis likely needs revision so that people can't just run down a checklist of symptoms, and they can thoughtfully describe their gender dysphoria over a prolonged period of time.

I'm not saying anyone has suffered more or less than anyone else, this isn't about levels of suffering. It's about the experience of the suffering and how care can and should be individualized. I don't relate to these detransitioners and desistors because their description of their own gender dysphoria is missing key experiences of mine and includes parts I have never experienced.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I still don’t think you can measure their dysphoria compared to yours, and you can’t know what they don’t share or discuss, but I get what you’re saying and it makes more sense than most answers I got from qt/trans.

I think what is confusing me is you say elsewhere that you hate being trans, but say this was the best treatment for you. I guess I feel like if it’s the best treatment, you shouldn’t and wouldn’t hate that about yourself? I do believe that for some, srs and hormones alleviates a certain level of distress, but since it seems to not be a cure or even effective in alleviating more distress, and does nothing to address the mental aspect (other than alleviating some distress), it’s hard for me to accept that it’s the best option for anyone. I still think extensive therapy and if needed, hospitalization while you get extensive therapy, is better in the long run. If someone can’t fully embrace being trans and not say they wish they weren’t, I don’t feel they’ve been treated effectively, personally. You seem more level headed than other qt/trans people I interact with here, but you also still seem just as discontent as the ones who aren’t so level headed.

It kind of seems to me that you’re talking about a treatment for distress that causes you to feel suicidal, not so much a treatment for the actual condition that causes the distress? And I was more thinking of treatment for the dysphoria itself. Or I’m totally wrong idk but I appreciate your answers. They’re well thought out and articulate.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes, I do hate it, and yes, surgical and hormonal treatment was the best treatment for me. It stopped self mutilation and it stopped me from killing myself. I would have liked to have had a normal life living as my birth sex, and I guess I hate myself for not being able to live that way. I'd rather live a life that pleases everyone instead of offends people.

A lot of my discontent is from sharing gender critical views and seeing myself as deluded freak; not all the time, that's a largely a self esteem issue from growing up living in a world that made it clear in every way that I was a freak, was wrong and was not a good person. I didn't grow up in the pro-trans "yay! be transgender!" world we have now. I might not hate myself as much if I had, and for that reason I'm on one hand happy for actual trans kids growing up now, but on the other unhappy to see unchecked boundaries of access to treatment.

The physical distress and psychological distress has lead to self harm, and to a self hatred for being something I shouldn't be. As I said, the world has made it clear from early childhood to me that my perception of myself and self-image is delusional, that I am wrong and "bad" for being the way I am, and it is my fault for being this way. I tried to change my perception of myself and my self-image and ignore my physical sensations because I want to be "good" and normal, but nothing I did was working. I don't want to hurt anyone or offend anyone, and I didn't see a place for me in this world, so I didn't want to live. This is where I would extend some agreement with newer trans ideology, that a lot of the distress is from (classic) societal views and treatment. The overwhelming message growing up and internalized was "I am wrong, I don't belong, I am crazy, I am bad, I am sick, I am a freak, this world is not for me".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think this makes sense. I get why someone chooses to transition, I just think that there needs to be more effort to find a better solution/treatment. And I tend to think that the problem with finding alternative treatment lies in the fact that most people suffering don’t want to endure the process of finding a better treatment (which, again, I totally get why they wouldn’t be). I feel like any mental illness that professionals find ways to treat- the treatment can only be found by taking the time to explore alternatives, and that can take years, even decades. I can’t word well what I’m trying to say, but i mean finding effective treatment is trial and error and takes time, and since transition is an option, most patients aren’t willing to endure other methods. I don’t have an issue with adults having these surgeries, I think they’re a bit barbaric in all honesty and seem to come with a lot of potential complications and as I said I don’t think it treats anything but the bodily discomfort, and I think it does kind of feed the delusion (idk another word to use here and thought it might be okay since you used this word, sorry if I offend), but an informed adult should be able to whatever they want to their body. I just don’t think it should be referred to as treatment, because it doesn’t truly treat the full issue, it only seems to alleviate one aspect of it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with much of what you're saying. I would like to ask though, how is alleviation, even if of just one part, not considered treatment in your opinion? I'm not sure how you feel about psychiatric medication and whether they have a place in medicine, but if a medicine only alleviates some symptoms and has been most effective for someone, would you not consider that treatment? I'm just curious of your opinion and would like elaboration into your views on this if you don't mind.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I mean is, I’m focused on the whole mentality of “I’m a woman/man, but born the opposite sex” or even the “gender identity” thing that we both don’t believe in. Transition doesn’t make someone no longer believe that, it doesn’t cure the mentality. So I’m not saying it doesn’t treat anything, I’m saying I don’t think it treats enough. I feel like, if you (not you some hypothetical “you”) transition but are still encountering circumstances and situations that trigger dysphoria, the treatment puts you at risk of harm or discrimination, or if someone can’t acknowledge that they are not truly a woman/man, then it seems like there’s still issues that need to be dealt with. I’m fine with transitioning (though the effects of long term CSH and the risks and potential complications of the surgeries are scary to me), I just wish that the patients would be required to acknowledge some truths before being operated on.

But I think my biggest issue is just that, someone would have to either have the right bone structure or a lot of money for other procedures to effectively socially transition, and that leaves a lot of trans people in an in between space, it’s hard for me to believe that visibly trans people are much happier post surgery, and that makes me wish there was more effort out into alternative treatment, because the current treatment leaves many not much better off. I think someone like you should have done exactly what you did (since there’s not really another option, but I think it should be for extreme cases only- and even for the extreme cases certain things should be acknowledged and accepted before the procedures and prescriptions start), but it seems to be the “go to” treatment for too many people. It’s concerning to me that the treatment for a mental condition relies so heavily on physicality. I feel like it sets up many people for disappointment. Idk if that makes sense, sorry

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is where I would extend some agreement with newer trans ideology, that a lot of the distress is from (classic) societal views and treatment.

A lot of GC people agree that our patriarchal society pushes people into transitioning (and other unhealthy gender roles) if they find they don't fit into a patriarchal category properly. GC just doesn't think that the solution to this is to give people drugs and plastic surgeries to make them fit into patriarchal categories better so they can have a peace of mind. Many minorities and women have had to and will have to deal with being treated as inferior, but they didn't make it their ideal to imitate something they're not so that society wouldn't disapprove of them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think that's the solution for that kind of distress either, that really should be reserved to treat classic transsexualism until better treatment is developed or discovered. And I agree, no one should have to imitate anything or anyone they aren't just to fit in.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

no one should have to imitate anything or anyone they aren't just to fit in.

This is like when MRAs say "Men and women shouldn't be treated differently". Empty virtue signalling doesn't work when it's inconsistent with the values of the entire movement. The misogyny of trans rights activism has never been addressed. Just called them out for it is grounds for bans and cancellation.