All: clearing up confusion over identification

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I think I recognize your name from Ovarit, I enjoy your posts/comments and we may talked before :) Thank you for sharing that with me, that actually means a lot to me!

To answer your question, I'll give it to you as honest and as personal as I can: What describes me is someone born biologically male who thought he was a girl because he didn't see the difference between boys and girls other than clothes, and this little boy loved to wear dresses, so he was obviously a girl. He loved to hear the story his mother would tell him about she was told she was having a girl, and was surprised that it was a boy instead when she gave birth. Obviously he was girl, because he was supposed to be, and he would often tell people so. He thought it was silly that people mistook him for a boy, and he knew he would grow up to be mommy just like his own and look just like her. He noticed something poking out of his body between his legs, and would push it back inside where it belonged, but as time went on it would stay in place less and less until finally he couldn't put it back at all. He didn't know what it was, but it felt like it needed to go back into his body. He kept growing until one day in school, he learned the boys and girls had different bodies, and that whatever was between your legs meant if you were going to be a girl or a boy. He realized that he wasn't going to grow up to be a mommy or look at all like his or any other mommy after all, and that he actually wasn't a girl. People had always treated him like he was a girl, or so he thought, and some even called him a girl. He had always thought he was in on a big joke and would laugh and laugh when he grew up and everyone would realize he was a girl after all and feel really silly, but now he realized that God had been playing a joke on him. He thought God was so mean and that He hated him. His body kept growing and changing, but he still acted the same and thought the same as he always had. For the first ten years of his life, he thought he was a girl and was going to grow up to be a mommy. Even though he was realizing that he actually was a boy and would grow up to be a daddy, he still could only see himself as a mommy. He also started envisioning a boy at school as being the daddy in their family, and decided that they were going to get married when they grew up. He started to really like being around the nice boys in school, and even made friends with some. He wondered a lot about boys and if they thought they were supposed to be girls too. He wondered what their bodies looked like and if they looked different from him. Everyone had always found this boy silly and funny, but as he kept growing and changing, the laughter started to feel mean and the boys and girls got meaner and meaner to him and called him names that he didn't understand, but everyone called him weird. He learned that it wasn't normal for boys to think they were girls or that they would become mommies, and this scared him so much because he was afraid he was crazy and that if anyone knew he thought he was supposed to be a girl and grow up to be a mommy, he would be locked up in a mental institution. He knew he was crazy and weird, so he tried as hard as he could to be normal and to not think the way he always had anymore, and not do the things he always did or behave the way he'd always behaved, because people would find out he was crazy. He tried his hardest to be a normal boy, but he didn't understand boys or why they acted the way they did, and everyone still called him weird. He didn't understand why the boys were starting to be weird around girls and wanted to date them, but everyone acted like it was normal, so he decided he needed to date a girl too to be a normal boy. He made friends with a girl who he thought might be someone he could date, and they became such good friends that they eventually did and became inseparable. He had never had such a such a close friend before. He knew that boys and girls kissed, and decided that he needed to do that to be normal. The boy was a really good friend, but he was not good at being a boyfriend when it came to expressing physical affection, but he knew he needed to do that to be normal. The boy tried so hard to be normal and not crazy, but he had never stopped loving the things he loved and thinking about himself the way he always had. He had always loved dresses and the clothes that girls wore and looking pretty and dressing up, and he had learned that what he had always been doing is called crossdressing. He knew it was bad and crazy and he needed to stop, but couldn't because it was the only time he actually felt normal and didn't need to pretend to be. Everyone had started to have the internet and a computer in their home, and people from around the world were starting to interact with each other and share things about their lives. The boy realized he could actually be a girl on the internet! He made up a name for himself and started getting attention from older men, which made him feel so cool and special and beautiful, and it made him start to feel good about himself. YouTube was brand new, and the boy spent a lot of time watching video. One day, the boy stumbled onto a video of another boy who lived outwardly as a girl "You can do that?" thought the boy. The boy learned that this other boy was called transgender and transsexual, which the boy had never heard of before. The boy in the video explained his feelings and life and what transgender and transsexual mean, and the boy realized that all of this described himself. The boy realized that there were other people like him and that he wasn't crazy after all, and that made him feel so relieved and happy to know that he wasn't and he wouldn't be locked up for being the way he was and for seeing himself the way he did. He learned all about what he needed to do to get treatment so he could live the life he always saw himself living and decided he would start treatment when he graduated from high school. The rest of the story probably isn't as relevant to the answer; most of it was me coming out to my bff to a bad reception and realizing I was going to probably be disowned by my parents, so I went back to trying to be normal for a few years until I realized I was going to die if I didn't get treatment.

The TL;DR answer would be that I know I'm not a woman because I am not a female, but I have just always thought of myself and seen myself as a woman, both for no one reason and for a lot of reasons. I acted like a girl, was treated like a girl, was told I was supposed to be a girl, looked like a girl, liked all the other things girls like, so it all reinforced my conviction that I was a girl and that I was going to grow up to be a woman, which to me meant I would grow up to look like my mom and be a mother just like her. I always had to put effort into being perceived and accepted by strangers as a man, but if I make no effort to behave any specific way and act naturally then I'm universally perceived as a woman, which reinforces my conviction from five years old that I was going to be a woman. So maybe that's it: I grew up seeing myself growing up to be a woman and it takes no effort to be perceived as a woman.

I apologize for the lengthy answer, the TL;DR probably covers it pretty well. Also, I apologize for the weird fairytale story format and wording, it's really hard for me to think about all of that and that's a way for me to kind of distance myself from bad memories. Hopefully something in here was helpful!😂

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Normally I wouldn't comment on this. But since you and I have been having a lengthy convo about your life on the other thread, and you do seem to be genuinely seeking honest feedback, I'm gonna chime in with my two cents here. Be forewarned, however, that my reaction might cause displeasure.

He noticed something poking out of his body between his legs, and would push it back inside where it belonged, but as time went on it would stay in place less and less until finally he couldn't put it back at all. He didn't know what it was, but it felt like it needed to go back into his body. He kept growing until one day in school, he learned the boys and girls had different bodies, and that whatever was between your legs meant if you were going to be a girl or a boy.

For the first ten years of his life, he thought he was a girl and was going to grow up to be a mommy.

Sorry, this comes off like serious retconning. And fictionalization.

Unless you stayed in diapers for an unusually long time, it's hard to believe that you hardly ever noticed your penis in childhood. Males, after all, urinate from their penises. At age 3 the typical toddler urinates 12 times during the waking hours; children age 5 and up typically urinate 7 times during the period of time each day they are awake. A toilet-trained male child would have to handle and watch his penis each and every time he pees - more than 4,300 times a year at 3 and 4, more than 2,500 per year from age 5 on. Are we to believe this didn't really apply to you?

How old were you when you were toilet trained anyways? Certainly it was many years before you turned 10. Most nursery schools require that children age 3 and up be fully toilet trained to attend. Unless a child is severely physically handicapped, there's no regular school that will admit a child into kindergarten if the child isn't toilet trained.

Also, didn't you take baths as a child? Boy children tend to be very aware - and fascinated by - their penises when in the tub. Showers? Didn't you change your underwear on a regular basis, even daily? Dress and undress each morning and night? Didn't you ever splash around in a wading or kiddie pool or go swimming wearing swim trunks that billowed out in the water so you noticed your penis bobbing? Or is the story that you wore girls' bathing suits in childhood in much the same way we're supposed to believe you always/mostly wore dresses and you were always "treated like a girl"?

You first say you didn't realize girls and boys had different bodies until you were in school - then you say you thought you were a girl until you were 10. And on another thread, you've also said you believed you were a girl until age 10. Which makes it sound like you like you had no contact with other children until age 10. Never saw a baby being bathed or getting his/her diaper changed. Never shared a bath or got undressed in the presence of another kid. Never noticed how all the other little boys in school were always tugging at their dicks. Never used a male loo and noticed the urinals.

If you wanted to be a mommy and thought you were a girl and that being a mommy is what all girls grow up to do, didn't you ever play with baby dolls? Little children of both sexes who play with baby dolls tend to do a lot of play diaper changing and bathing of their dolls - and the different urinary anatomy of boys and girls definitely comes up and is discussed at length during such play. This was the case when I was little, and it was the case when my own kids - who are about your age - were little too.

I acted like a girl, was treated like a girl, was told I was supposed to be a girl, looked like a girl, liked all the other things girls like, so it all reinforced my conviction that I was a girl

Are we really to believe that your whole childhood you used female loos, fitting rooms, change rooms? When the class was divided up into boys and girls for whatever reason, you were told you belonged with the girls? That all the times when you and your schoolmates were on the playground or playing amongst yourselves and did boys vs girls stuff, or formed groups based on sex, you were automatically included with the girls? You went to school wearing what you'd call "girls clothes" or a girl's uniform? All the other little girls at school and in your nabe saw you as a girl and accepted you as one of theirs? And all their parents went along?

Sorry, I am not suggesting that your are intentionally fibbing, but your account of your childhood does not sound believable to me. I think you've made up a story about what happened in your childhood to help explain to yourself and others how you ended up where you are later in life and why you feel as you do. That's a very common thing to do. Human memory is a very tricky and unreliable thing. There probably is a lot of emotional truth in the story you've become accustomed to telling yourself that causes you think it all feels and must be utterly true. But emotional truth and actual facts often don't line up. The stories we tell ourselves happened often did not actually happen the way we've portrayed them - or at all.

These quotes, which I've numbered to make responding to each one easier, stand out to me as getting to the crux of the story you've told of your life, which you oddly decided to put mostly in the third person - another reason the narrative sounds many false notes and doesn't come of as an "authentic" account:

  1. this little boy loved to wear dresses, so he was obviously a girl

  2. He had always loved dresses and the clothes that girls wore and looking pretty and dressing up

  3. I acted like a girl, was treated like a girl, was told I was supposed to be a girl, looked like a girl, liked all the other things girls like, so it all reinforced my conviction that I was a girl

  4. he didn't see the difference between boys and girls other than clothes

  5. The boy realized he could actually be a girl on the internet! He made up a name for himself and started getting attention from older men, which made him feel so cool and special and beautiful, and it made him start to feel good about himself.

  6. YouTube was brand new, and the boy spent a lot of time watching video. One day, the boy stumbled onto a video of another boy who lived outwardly as a girl "You can do that?"

1, 2, 3 are examples of nothing but sex stereotypes. Very superficial sex stereotypes that are mainly about looks, too. You didn't want to be a girl coz you saw girls as kinder, neater, more studious, cleverer, brighter, better, more nurturing, more steadfast and so on. You wanted to be a girl coz to you that meant wearing dresses, looking pretty, dressing up.

4 makes me wonder if the real message of he didn't see the difference between boys and girls other than clothes is that you didn't see beyond clothes?

5 shows that at a crucial time in adolescence/puberty you linked up your fantasy of being a girl with sexual gratification. You started having sexual relations (if only virtually) with older men, and you got self-esteem and pleasure from this. Seems you linked being a girl with being sexually objectified, and you found you liked being sexually objectified. In this way, the sexist stereotypes that held sway over you since early childhood acquired an erotic charge, which multiplied the power of these sexist stereotypes and increased their hold on you. Presumably, by this time you had started masturbating, having wet dreams, and getting spontaneous erections - and this got all tied into and mixed up with your fantasies about and preoccupation with wearing dresses, looking pretty and dressing up - all of which added an erotic super charge to them..

6 demonstrates that you deciding that your decision to transition was partly the result of suggestion and social contagion. It also shows that your dream about living outwardly as a girl. Outwardly as a girl - the fantasy is all about what can be seen on the surface, and in the scenario you see in your mind's eye you are forever young, underage even. In your fantasy world being a girl is a permanent state, not one that will give way to adulthood, middle age and old age.

Even in as you express a desire to emulate your mother, you equate being a mommy with looking like one. No mention of being loving, nurturing, comforting, carrying a pregnancy, giving birth, breastfeeding, tending to a baby, raising children, soothing worried and fevered brows, wiping tears, giving cuddles, showing you how to do things, feeding you, caring for you when you were sick... Nope, the whole focus is solely on looking the part:

he knew he would grow up to be mommy just like his own and look just like her.

He realized that he wasn't going to grow up to be a mommy or look at all like his or any other mommy after all

it all reinforced my conviction that I was a girl and that I was going to grow up to be a woman, which to me meant I would grow up to look like my mom and be a mother just like her.

Perception and appearance seem to be all that matters, not who you actually are inside:

I always had to put effort into being perceived and accepted by strangers as a man, but if I make no effort to behave any specific way and act naturally then I'm universally perceived as a woman

Why does what you believe to be the way you are perceived by others count so much more to you than who and what sex you actually are? Seems to me you are selling yourself way too short.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s wish fulfilment fantasy not memory. A child that deluded would not be able to evade intervention from school or protective services.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Regarding your first four paragraphs, I don't really know what you're responding to since I never said nor gave any indication that I didn't notice my genitals or hardly noticed them--I was very aware, I'm not sure where you're drawing that I hardly noticed anything. Did you think I was saying I didn't notice my genitals until I was 10? I'm sorry if my wording makes it sound like that's what I was saying, but that wasn't my intention if so.

You first say you didn't realize girls and boys had different bodies until you were in school - then you say you thought you were a girl until you were 10. And on another thread, you've also said you believed you were a girl until age 10. Which makes it sound like you like you had no contact with other children until age 10. Never saw a baby being bathed or getting his/her diaper changed. Never shared a bath or got undressed in the presence of another kid. Never noticed how all the other little boys in school were always tugging at their dicks. Never used a male loo and noticed the urinals.

I was around other children and babies a little bit, but not very much. I never had siblings and there were no neighbor children. I lived just with my parents, and we lived about an hour away from my extended family. My cousins are all much younger than me, so I didn't really have a lot of children or babies I interacted with much, it was almost entirely adults. So, no, I didn't really have any of those experiences, at least that I can remember.

If you wanted to be a mommy and thought you were a girl and that being a mommy is what all girls grow up to do, didn't you ever play with baby dolls? Little children of both sexes who play with baby dolls tend to do a lot of play diaper changing and bathing of their dolls - and the different urinary anatomy of boys and girls definitely comes up and is discussed at length during such play. This was the case when I was little, and it was the case when my own kids - who are about your age - were little too.

I didn't have any baby dolls growing up, I just played with stuffed animals and miniatures and Barbies and that kind of stuff.

Are we really to believe that your whole childhood you used female loos, fitting rooms, change rooms? When the class was divided up into boys and girls for whatever reason, you were told you belonged with the girls? That all the times when you and your schoolmates were on the playground or playing amongst yourselves and did boys vs girls stuff, or formed groups based on sex, you were automatically included with the girls? You went to school wearing what you'd call "girls clothes" or a girl's uniform? All the other little girls at school and in your nabe saw you as a girl and accepted you as one of theirs? And all their parents went along?

No, and again I'm sorry if my wording made it sound that way. I knew that a lot of people called me a boy even though I was a girl, and I thought it was really funny--that didn't distress me so much as amuse me, because one day they'd realize that they'd been wrong the whole time. That's how I saw it. My mom told me that I would tell her I was a girl a lot, but I don't remember that because I think I was younger.

Sorry, I am not suggesting that your are intentionally fibbing, but your account of your childhood does not sound believable to me. I think you've made up a story about what happened in your childhood to help explain to yourself and others how you ended up where you are later in life and why you feel as you do. That's a very common thing to do. Human memory is a very tricky and unreliable thing. There probably is a lot of emotional truth in the story you've become accustomed to telling yourself that causes you think it all feels and must be utterly true. But emotional truth and actual facts often don't line up. The stories we tell ourselves happened often did not actually happen the way we've portrayed them - or at all.

I would agree with you, but you misinterpreted some important stuff and made a lot of assumptions based on that, as well as stereotypes. It's a weird story, I had a weird childhood, I was a weird kid, my life has been weird and outrageous. I hold a lot of resentment towards some family members for enabling, abusing me, and molding me into a surrogate wife, but I would rather not get into the really dark stuff here.

I'll address the numbered points you broke down and give my responses in the same format (smart!)

1, 2, 3.) I already was kinder, neater, more studious, cleverer, brighter, better, more nurturing, more steadfast and I was a girl, but I never viewed those traits being "girl" traits. And I wanted to wear dresses and look pretty on top of it. I was a girl and I was already those things, in my mind.

4.) I guess that was the biggest difference I saw, at least when I was littler. It was the most striking, the clothes and hair, but otherwise I didn't really see a whole lot of other differences between boys and girls when I was very little. I didn't make a connection that there was a pattern of me avoiding boys and wanting to play with girls as whole groups, I thought about other children based on how the individual and I interacted. Hopefully that makes sense?

5.) I definitely loved the attention older men gave me online as a girl, but that started when I was 16 well into puberty and almost done. Also, I didn't see it as being sexually objectified (even if I really was), but rather having power over men. I actually had some kind of power over males for the first time, which really did give me a kick. If anything had an "erotic charge" to it, it was that power. I don't really know how to respond to the rest of your hypothesis, but it's an interesting take.

6.) If watching one or two people's videos is a social contagion, I guess I had an immunodeficiency. To know that there were other people out there like me was incredible, and to know that I wasn't crazy gave me all the relief in the world. Also, I always preferred to use the term "outwardly" like so because psychologically and behaviorally I already was a girl--I never really transitioned, as I saw it and still see it. It was like I just stopped pretending to be a boy. Does that make sense? Outwardly express, akin to "coming out" and not hiding who and what I was. And honestly, I really hated my life until I lived openly and "transitioned", each passing year is better than the last--you couldn't pay me to relive childhood, adolescence or my young adult years. Even my 20s were worse than my 30s so far, not that I'm far into them.

Even in as you express a desire to emulate your mother, you equate being a mommy with looking like one. No mention of being loving, nurturing, comforting, carrying a pregnancy, giving birth, breastfeeding, tending to a baby, raising children, soothing worried and fevered brows, wiping tears, giving cuddles, showing you how to do things, feeding you, caring for you when you were sick... Nope, the whole focus is solely on looking the part

No, you're right, I didn't mention any of that and characterized being a mommy by appearance. I used the word "mommy" as being a woman like my mom. It was how I thought of women, just like I thought of men as "daddies", so that's how I perceived them and what I called them. I wanted to be and was going to be just like my mom in every way while growing up. She has a lot of those qualities you mention. My point was that I was going to be just like her not only in personality but in appearance too.

Perception and appearance seem to be all that matters, not who you actually are inside

Who I actually am inside is what leads me to do things and talk to people who might not like me, if I think I can do something to help make the world a little bit of a kinder, more understanding place. Who I actually am inside is revealed through the canvas and in writing, in creative ways of expressing myself and of evoking emotion in others in the name of empathy. The point of telling my history wasn't to really talk about who I am inside as a whole person, really, but rather my sex and gender dysphoria, because that's what we've been talking about. To make the assumption that it doesn't matter to me, or at least matters less than perception and appearance, is pretty silly given what the context of my comments and my recounting my history of gender/sex dysphoria.

You mentioned also that you found it interesting that I wrote that all in the third person; I did so because it's extremely upsetting to really think about, it really traumatized me, so telling my history that way helps me not become emotionally overwhelmed. I made a video where I talk about my history in much greater detail, and I tell that from my own first person account, which really made me overwhelmingly emotional--feel free to check it out if you're ever interested (and have two hours to kill) https://youtu.be/CL-f5d2i5tA

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I must say, although I fond MarkTwainiac's answer a bit harsh and disagree with their interpretation of certain things (I don't really feel like breaking down a three pages long comment, though, but generally I find there is a lack of nuance in the psychological analysis...), it has brought a couple of things t the top of my mind.

Namely, I did feel somewhat insulted/annoyed when you referenced wearing dresses and looking pretty. I understand where you're coming from, but this is so tiring. So many of us hated it and it was forced upon us ; I felt distress for so long because I craved looking all girly and pretty like others and I, just, couldn't. So many of us feel unworthy because of that... Stating that the will to wear dresses and makeup is somehow an indicator of a female gender identity is more or less saying that we are unworthy, or not real girls.

The idea of having older men after you. I get what you're saying about power, and that's part of the pro OnlyFans, etc., rhetoric. The idea that being preyed upon by older men is somehow empowering. I fell for it too at some point in my life. The truth, however, is that it's kind of insulting for many reasons. It's insulting because you are finding power in something that is actually a loss of power for us, something that is often a burden and a source of distress because, and that is the second insulting thing, unlike you, we never have the option that you always had, at least before, which is to take off the dress and the female username and become a man...these sorts of things can hardly become empowering unless you are in a situation of privilege, in that case being male and having the choice. It's also difficult not to notice how you mention being abused by relatives to be molded into a surrogate wife. I don't want you to get into anything too personal on here, but it's difficult not to at least suspect that there is a correlation between severe GD and parental abuse. (BTW I hope you are seeking help for this, sounds like serious shit)

Again, I do have empathy for what you're going through, and you seem like a cool person. But I'm sure you can understand how your history (and pain) clashes with ours.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So many of us hated it and it was forced upon us ; I felt distress for so long because I craved looking all girly and pretty like others and I, just, couldn't. So many of us feel unworthy because of that... Stating that the will to wear dresses and makeup is somehow an indicator of a female gender identity is more or less saying that we are unworthy, or not real girls.

I can see what you're saying about that, and I'll admit I hadn't really considered any how biological girls and women might feel about that, or rather, just how much your experiences could have distressed you. I'm sorry for being insulting or demeaning you in any way, please trust that I really didn't mean to. And this isn't an attempt to defend myself, but my childhood thinking was obviously flawed and self-centered, and my thinking now is probably somewhat the same, but I know that it's not indicative of being a girl, but rather being a weird boy who thinks he's a girl. But again, I'm sorry for being insensitive and demeaning.

What you mention about the problem with craving that power in my interactions with older men when I was a teenager, I fully agree with now as an adult many years later, and I cringe at how degrading and debasing that was to myself. I really had no self worth nor self respect, and it's embarrassing to look back at and think of how I gave myself up like that. And I can see where, although you can relate to falling victim to that illusion yourself, I understand why you'd be resentful of the fact that I could walk away from the attention when I wanted to, while you and every other girl couldn't. It wasn't fair, it isn't fair, and I would probably feel resentful too if I were in your place. It was something I never really considered before, because even being able to walk away from it when I wanted, just being a man and getting away from that never provided any kind of relief, or didn't seem to at least. But I obviously didn't (and still don't, at least pre-transition as a young adult) know what it's like to grow up as a girl who has no choice but to deal with that. You're right: even as an unpopular effeminate weirdo, I was still male and still had that male privilege that I gladly exercised. I'm sorry to try to compare my experience with yours or any other woman's experience growing up in this regard, it really isn't comparable, or at least not as much as I would have liked to believe.

I've been in therapy for quite a few years, and especially addressing trauma in the past two years. There's a lot I wasn't able to deal with before I had SRS, but I'm working through a lot now, thank you for your concern. I was abused by at least close two male relatives, and in a way brought up a kind of "wife" to one--and I do think though maybe none of it alone necessarily set me on the path to full-blown transsexualism, but that both relationships with these men only reinforced the way I saw myself and influenced the way I behave. But I've found it very curious that I wasn't able to remember a lot of things nor really examine much of my past until I actually had surgery, because if I had to phrase it in words, part of the relief I feel now is that I'm no longer "exposed" there. But I was also sexually assaulted by two classmates while growing up too, and that affected me deeply; it's really really hard to disentangle what caused what, or what affected what in what way. And not try to gain sympathy or pity points, but all of childhood until transition seemed like one big, long 23 year traumatic experience. And I do believe that trauma, especially from abuse, particularly abuse from caregivers, can play a big part in gender dysphoria development and progress, or maybe even altogether cause it in some individuals.

I really appreciate you exercising and extending empathy towards me, and I want to do the same for you: I'm so sorry that I hurt you, and I am so sorry to have compared my pain to yours. Superficial similarities doesn't mean it's the same pain or painful experience, I'm beginning to see that now.

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish you would stop apologizing so much, lol. Again, if you're being genuine, it doesn't sound like you're really that much a part of the problem.

You know, one problem I have personally with my struggles against transactivism is that there are individuals like yourself who seem to be genuinely suffering and these individuals get caught in the crossfire between women and feminists like myself, and TRAs, whether well-meaning or just plain misogynistic assholes. What I get from it is that you suffered greatly, and through a complex set of events, misconceptions and probably self-defense mechanisms, ended up forging up the conclusion in your mind that the solution, or at least part of the solution, was to effectively "become female". I do kind of resent you for that as it means (at least in the past, I can't tell for now) that you view womanhood, meaning my very existence, as somewhat of a concept that you can just opt in. BUT. The thing is I don't resent or hate you personally so much as I resent and hate the social system which has led/encouraged you to believe that this was legitimate and that becoming a woman was one of your options. If we didn't have a system that enforces gendered stereotypes so much and depicted women as a concept or a performance so much, chances are not only that you would have never attempted to transition because there would be no affirmation, but that you would not have suffered like you did over your sex. I suspect that for many (especially self-ID'd and young) trans women it must be extremely frustrating to be told "yeah, you can totally be a woman and it will solve all your issues" (very roughly) only to have the "mean" women and/or feminists say "er, no, feck off" must be incredibly frustrating. Same actually applies to trans men, or non binary females mostly. (A charlatan promises you a magic pill and your mean mum tells you it's actually poison, and you're a teen !?!?? We all know who's evil here !)

I don't wish to make you feel like sh!t personally : you seem pretty understanding already, what's done is done, you seem to have done what had to be done in order for yourself to survive with the options that were presented to you. As far as I've gone down the radfem rabbit hole, one thing has always remained in me and that is the belief that it will serve me no purpose to club down an opponent who not only understands my stance but doesn't actively fight against it. As far as I'm aware, you're not out there demanding women with PTSD get around their trauma to accommodate your sexual desires nor claiming the presidency of a woman's federation.

For the sake of discussion, however, I think it's interesting to point out that you've said "I'd never thought about it" more than once when referring to how your stance about being a woman is actually offensive. Thing is even as a radfem I personally find it difficult to blame individual males, especially ones who experience crippling distress, for not considering offense when noone is confronting them. It is quite telling that you appear to be about my age (late twenties), probably described your GD to many people so far, and no one has ever drawn your attention to how (at least some of) your indicators that you were in fact a girl were not only grounded into sexist stereotypes, but that those would actually be offensive to women. It sounds like (and again, if you feel guilty about it that's on you but I don't personally blame you individually for it) you never considered women's feelings in all of this.. and that says something about how much we are disregarded in that society. This is something I often see in trans identified males : it seems most of them, while some are pretty keen on lecturing us about what womanhood is and means to them, have never actually bothered to sit down and discuss with women to find out what it is and means to us. Rather, it seems many take for granted that the idea of a woman that has been created by and for men throughout history is the right one. But is that really surprising, given the world we live in ? I do appreciate that you don't come off as obnoxious or arrogant about it. I might be frustrated at what you represent politically, but individually I think it's important to recognize that while you have wronged us in some way, your constant apologizing suggests that the wronging came from ignorance rather than blatant disregard : now, SRS and HRT are behind you and all the better if outwardly living as a woman makes you happy. Again, as long as you're not campaigning to reduce our political representation or infringe on our boundaries, attempting to make you feel bad over it isn't gonna help anyone. You may have seen the o/ thread when I got in a row with a black woman who was frustrated about individuals of my community doing "blackface" because they were dressing up as various public personalities, one of which happened to be black. The organizers did not know what blackface was, or that it was wrong. My stance was that, while we can say "er, no, that's offensive, don't do that again", it's hard to blame someone for doing something offensive when they didn't know it was offensive in the first place. The other poster accused me of downplaying racism to defend my community. Think what you will of it, but I think the same basic principle can apply to many male transsexuals : if noone ever tells you that what you are doing is offensive or co-opting, how can you know ? And once it's done and you can prove that you didn't know at the time, what does it serve to just bash on your head when there are actual KKK members and incels around ?

About the online posing, I appreciate that you hear me when I say it's offensive, but I can also understand when you say that being a man provided no relief. Whatever my thoughts on transitioning and social conditioning are, I have definitely heard testimonies from people with crippling GD and can understand the catch 22 quality of the situation. Don't be sorry about comparing experiences. That was your point of view and experience and they were true at the time for you. That matters to your life experience. Plus, there is no way to tell how our experiences are either similar or not without comparing. This is actually useful in trying to get a clearer picture of what's going on. I often come across young trans identifying males on Twitter who are basically begging for simps, that suggests a reason why aside from AGP. Plus you're actually providing us with more proof that women (or at least individuals with a feminine profile) get targeted by older men. That's useful to both our "camps". I also think it's actually wholesome that you would say our experiences are not as comparable "as much as [you] would have liked to believe". That's an expression of honesty which, as someone who underwent a lot of group therapy, suggests a path to finding peace with yourself. (Cheesy, I know)

It's interesting that SRS has made you able to address your issues. I'm definitely putting that in my internal book and it's gonna be on my mind as I keep learning about those issues. Looking forward to your answer or further discussions ! Take Care till then ! They accuse us t*rfs of wanting trans people dead, but we don't. I do care !

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Don't apologize, that was genuinely insightful. The format made it more impersonal and allowed some distance. That sounds pretty much like textbook GD/HSTS to me. I kind of get that. If you're being genuine, you'd probably be the kind of person we can work with. It's actually refreshing.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you, I appreciate that. I've enjoyed talking to you and a lot of others with a gender critical perspective. The fact that you're all questioning that which has become "sacred" and unquestionable has led me to think about a lot of things I hadn't considered before, and see a new perspective on transgenderism and the effect that the transgender rights movement is having on people.

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Equally glad ! Looking forward to other exchanges, and will definitely recognize your username on o/ !