All: clearing up confusion over identification

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I must say, although I fond MarkTwainiac's answer a bit harsh and disagree with their interpretation of certain things (I don't really feel like breaking down a three pages long comment, though, but generally I find there is a lack of nuance in the psychological analysis...), it has brought a couple of things t the top of my mind.

Namely, I did feel somewhat insulted/annoyed when you referenced wearing dresses and looking pretty. I understand where you're coming from, but this is so tiring. So many of us hated it and it was forced upon us ; I felt distress for so long because I craved looking all girly and pretty like others and I, just, couldn't. So many of us feel unworthy because of that... Stating that the will to wear dresses and makeup is somehow an indicator of a female gender identity is more or less saying that we are unworthy, or not real girls.

The idea of having older men after you. I get what you're saying about power, and that's part of the pro OnlyFans, etc., rhetoric. The idea that being preyed upon by older men is somehow empowering. I fell for it too at some point in my life. The truth, however, is that it's kind of insulting for many reasons. It's insulting because you are finding power in something that is actually a loss of power for us, something that is often a burden and a source of distress because, and that is the second insulting thing, unlike you, we never have the option that you always had, at least before, which is to take off the dress and the female username and become a man...these sorts of things can hardly become empowering unless you are in a situation of privilege, in that case being male and having the choice. It's also difficult not to notice how you mention being abused by relatives to be molded into a surrogate wife. I don't want you to get into anything too personal on here, but it's difficult not to at least suspect that there is a correlation between severe GD and parental abuse. (BTW I hope you are seeking help for this, sounds like serious shit)

Again, I do have empathy for what you're going through, and you seem like a cool person. But I'm sure you can understand how your history (and pain) clashes with ours.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So many of us hated it and it was forced upon us ; I felt distress for so long because I craved looking all girly and pretty like others and I, just, couldn't. So many of us feel unworthy because of that... Stating that the will to wear dresses and makeup is somehow an indicator of a female gender identity is more or less saying that we are unworthy, or not real girls.

I can see what you're saying about that, and I'll admit I hadn't really considered any how biological girls and women might feel about that, or rather, just how much your experiences could have distressed you. I'm sorry for being insulting or demeaning you in any way, please trust that I really didn't mean to. And this isn't an attempt to defend myself, but my childhood thinking was obviously flawed and self-centered, and my thinking now is probably somewhat the same, but I know that it's not indicative of being a girl, but rather being a weird boy who thinks he's a girl. But again, I'm sorry for being insensitive and demeaning.

What you mention about the problem with craving that power in my interactions with older men when I was a teenager, I fully agree with now as an adult many years later, and I cringe at how degrading and debasing that was to myself. I really had no self worth nor self respect, and it's embarrassing to look back at and think of how I gave myself up like that. And I can see where, although you can relate to falling victim to that illusion yourself, I understand why you'd be resentful of the fact that I could walk away from the attention when I wanted to, while you and every other girl couldn't. It wasn't fair, it isn't fair, and I would probably feel resentful too if I were in your place. It was something I never really considered before, because even being able to walk away from it when I wanted, just being a man and getting away from that never provided any kind of relief, or didn't seem to at least. But I obviously didn't (and still don't, at least pre-transition as a young adult) know what it's like to grow up as a girl who has no choice but to deal with that. You're right: even as an unpopular effeminate weirdo, I was still male and still had that male privilege that I gladly exercised. I'm sorry to try to compare my experience with yours or any other woman's experience growing up in this regard, it really isn't comparable, or at least not as much as I would have liked to believe.

I've been in therapy for quite a few years, and especially addressing trauma in the past two years. There's a lot I wasn't able to deal with before I had SRS, but I'm working through a lot now, thank you for your concern. I was abused by at least close two male relatives, and in a way brought up a kind of "wife" to one--and I do think though maybe none of it alone necessarily set me on the path to full-blown transsexualism, but that both relationships with these men only reinforced the way I saw myself and influenced the way I behave. But I've found it very curious that I wasn't able to remember a lot of things nor really examine much of my past until I actually had surgery, because if I had to phrase it in words, part of the relief I feel now is that I'm no longer "exposed" there. But I was also sexually assaulted by two classmates while growing up too, and that affected me deeply; it's really really hard to disentangle what caused what, or what affected what in what way. And not try to gain sympathy or pity points, but all of childhood until transition seemed like one big, long 23 year traumatic experience. And I do believe that trauma, especially from abuse, particularly abuse from caregivers, can play a big part in gender dysphoria development and progress, or maybe even altogether cause it in some individuals.

I really appreciate you exercising and extending empathy towards me, and I want to do the same for you: I'm so sorry that I hurt you, and I am so sorry to have compared my pain to yours. Superficial similarities doesn't mean it's the same pain or painful experience, I'm beginning to see that now.

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish you would stop apologizing so much, lol. Again, if you're being genuine, it doesn't sound like you're really that much a part of the problem.

You know, one problem I have personally with my struggles against transactivism is that there are individuals like yourself who seem to be genuinely suffering and these individuals get caught in the crossfire between women and feminists like myself, and TRAs, whether well-meaning or just plain misogynistic assholes. What I get from it is that you suffered greatly, and through a complex set of events, misconceptions and probably self-defense mechanisms, ended up forging up the conclusion in your mind that the solution, or at least part of the solution, was to effectively "become female". I do kind of resent you for that as it means (at least in the past, I can't tell for now) that you view womanhood, meaning my very existence, as somewhat of a concept that you can just opt in. BUT. The thing is I don't resent or hate you personally so much as I resent and hate the social system which has led/encouraged you to believe that this was legitimate and that becoming a woman was one of your options. If we didn't have a system that enforces gendered stereotypes so much and depicted women as a concept or a performance so much, chances are not only that you would have never attempted to transition because there would be no affirmation, but that you would not have suffered like you did over your sex. I suspect that for many (especially self-ID'd and young) trans women it must be extremely frustrating to be told "yeah, you can totally be a woman and it will solve all your issues" (very roughly) only to have the "mean" women and/or feminists say "er, no, feck off" must be incredibly frustrating. Same actually applies to trans men, or non binary females mostly. (A charlatan promises you a magic pill and your mean mum tells you it's actually poison, and you're a teen !?!?? We all know who's evil here !)

I don't wish to make you feel like sh!t personally : you seem pretty understanding already, what's done is done, you seem to have done what had to be done in order for yourself to survive with the options that were presented to you. As far as I've gone down the radfem rabbit hole, one thing has always remained in me and that is the belief that it will serve me no purpose to club down an opponent who not only understands my stance but doesn't actively fight against it. As far as I'm aware, you're not out there demanding women with PTSD get around their trauma to accommodate your sexual desires nor claiming the presidency of a woman's federation.

For the sake of discussion, however, I think it's interesting to point out that you've said "I'd never thought about it" more than once when referring to how your stance about being a woman is actually offensive. Thing is even as a radfem I personally find it difficult to blame individual males, especially ones who experience crippling distress, for not considering offense when noone is confronting them. It is quite telling that you appear to be about my age (late twenties), probably described your GD to many people so far, and no one has ever drawn your attention to how (at least some of) your indicators that you were in fact a girl were not only grounded into sexist stereotypes, but that those would actually be offensive to women. It sounds like (and again, if you feel guilty about it that's on you but I don't personally blame you individually for it) you never considered women's feelings in all of this.. and that says something about how much we are disregarded in that society. This is something I often see in trans identified males : it seems most of them, while some are pretty keen on lecturing us about what womanhood is and means to them, have never actually bothered to sit down and discuss with women to find out what it is and means to us. Rather, it seems many take for granted that the idea of a woman that has been created by and for men throughout history is the right one. But is that really surprising, given the world we live in ? I do appreciate that you don't come off as obnoxious or arrogant about it. I might be frustrated at what you represent politically, but individually I think it's important to recognize that while you have wronged us in some way, your constant apologizing suggests that the wronging came from ignorance rather than blatant disregard : now, SRS and HRT are behind you and all the better if outwardly living as a woman makes you happy. Again, as long as you're not campaigning to reduce our political representation or infringe on our boundaries, attempting to make you feel bad over it isn't gonna help anyone. You may have seen the o/ thread when I got in a row with a black woman who was frustrated about individuals of my community doing "blackface" because they were dressing up as various public personalities, one of which happened to be black. The organizers did not know what blackface was, or that it was wrong. My stance was that, while we can say "er, no, that's offensive, don't do that again", it's hard to blame someone for doing something offensive when they didn't know it was offensive in the first place. The other poster accused me of downplaying racism to defend my community. Think what you will of it, but I think the same basic principle can apply to many male transsexuals : if noone ever tells you that what you are doing is offensive or co-opting, how can you know ? And once it's done and you can prove that you didn't know at the time, what does it serve to just bash on your head when there are actual KKK members and incels around ?

About the online posing, I appreciate that you hear me when I say it's offensive, but I can also understand when you say that being a man provided no relief. Whatever my thoughts on transitioning and social conditioning are, I have definitely heard testimonies from people with crippling GD and can understand the catch 22 quality of the situation. Don't be sorry about comparing experiences. That was your point of view and experience and they were true at the time for you. That matters to your life experience. Plus, there is no way to tell how our experiences are either similar or not without comparing. This is actually useful in trying to get a clearer picture of what's going on. I often come across young trans identifying males on Twitter who are basically begging for simps, that suggests a reason why aside from AGP. Plus you're actually providing us with more proof that women (or at least individuals with a feminine profile) get targeted by older men. That's useful to both our "camps". I also think it's actually wholesome that you would say our experiences are not as comparable "as much as [you] would have liked to believe". That's an expression of honesty which, as someone who underwent a lot of group therapy, suggests a path to finding peace with yourself. (Cheesy, I know)

It's interesting that SRS has made you able to address your issues. I'm definitely putting that in my internal book and it's gonna be on my mind as I keep learning about those issues. Looking forward to your answer or further discussions ! Take Care till then ! They accuse us t*rfs of wanting trans people dead, but we don't. I do care !