GC: Is anything transphobia?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Generally the accusation is levied at "non-believers", which is kind of like calling atheists "God-haters".

I don’t really follow. Medically transitioned people exist whether or not someone believes in trans identities.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Is there a specific prejudice against people who medically transition? Isn't it just GNC-phobia again? Medical transition can often alleviate some of the GNC-phobia experienced without it, right? I'd think pro-conformity people would prefer it over the alternative.

Social (& medical) transition from man into 'non-man' (every culture has a different name & I have no idea about their language's etymology) has been the outgrowth of homophobic societies. It's a compromise, a way for their non-conformity to find a place in a heteronormative society. The residual prejudice that remains against this population is surely just diluted homophobia?

If you view transgender as it's own independent identity I think you could believe transphobia exists. But I don't see it that way. The desistance rate in underage people is very high & the majority of those who desist are gay. Seems more like a phase in homosexual children than an identity. Then there are the adolescent trenders & the middle-aged autogynaephiles, which I regard as a sub-culture & a paraphilia respectively.

Obviously, some of the first group that I mentioned can get to the end of their life without ever desisting, but what are the implications that same-sex attraction is so common within the transgender population? Desistance actually "cures" people, but transition only "cures" sexual orientation indirectly via cross-gender self-identification, it doesn't result in "gender euphoria". Does a transgender population exist at all, or are they gay people who never grew out of their cross-gender identification phase?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Is there a specific prejudice against people who medically transition?

I feel like there is at least amongst some GC people. I tried to do a hypothetical where it seemed like transphobia because other thing would have been ruled out.

Does a transgender population exist at all, or are they gay people who never grew out of their cross-gender identification phase?

Even if we are, we still exist as something distinct from most gay people. I do think sexual orientation is related to how I am, but I’m trying to not making this about identity at all, just like how medically transitioned people should be treated and if it’s okay to treat us like bad people because we are trans.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Identity aside then, if we lived in a culture that favoured desistance over transition, maybe. Maybe if we looked down on people who medically transitioned as opposed to not, perhaps in that case you could call it transphobia. But I think the opposite is true. Our culture favours transition. I think 'transgender' is homophobia incarnate; internalised, pathologised homophobia.

Pat Robertson recently came out in support of transgender, when a week earlier he doubled down on his homophobia. Only out-of-touch liberals are surprised by this. It's perfectly logically consistent to anyone else.

So when I'm asked if transphobia exists, from my perspective I'm being asked if prejudice against a form of homophobic conversion therapy exists. That previous sentence may sound like I'm trying to appeal to personal incredulity, however it's not actually impossible for prejudice to exist against the very thing that society promotes. Take femininity for instance. Our culture forces women into femininity, but then punishes them for it. Femininity is sexism, but our culture is prejudiced against femininity as well.

So staying with femininity, do I believe "femphobia" (prejudice against femininity) exists? I think saying that it does would only distract from the root cause. It'd focus on the wrong thing. Femininity is conformity, therefore GNC women (which we could compare to the desisted & detransitioned populations) could be considered "femphobic", which turns the whole thing on its head.

I'd just say sexism exists & femininity, & what results from it, is an outgrowth of that sexism. The same goes for transphobia. The root cause is homophobia. Femphobia, as a by-product of sexism, also plays a role here, as being "woman-like" is discriminated against in the cases of women primarily, but backfires & ends up negatively affecting gay men & those who transition too.

I feel like there is at least [prejudice] amongst some GC people

I don't think of radical feminists as prejudiced. It's a very common anti-feminist accusation, usually as a way to dismiss what the feminist in question is saying. Feminists expose prejudice & the backlash never addresses that, it deflects, pretending that she is prejudiced herself. A feminist pointing out that men hate women always results in her getting labelled 'man-hater', which 'transphobe' has become a synonym for. I think radical feminists are just far less tolerant of sexism, in all its forms, which happens to include the sexist appropriation & erasure that is the inevitable result of trans ideology.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m talking about transphobia in very specific instances and whether or not it exists at all. I think it can and does exists in very specific cases, but I’m not trying to say that it’s some huge social problem. Femininity is look down upon even for people who are being force to perform it. I agree with that totally. It’s sadly just part of living in a patriarchal misogynistic world. I feel like you are just going on unrelated tangents though and not addressing the question the thread was about. I guess that is fine and I probably won’t continue to pry if I’m not getting anywhere.

I don't think of radical feminists as prejudiced. It's a very common anti-feminist accusation, usually as a way to dismiss what the feminist in question is saying. Feminists expose prejudice & the backlash never addresses that, it deflects, pretending that she is prejudiced herself. A feminist pointing out that men hate women always results in her getting labelled 'man-hater', which 'transphobe' has become a synonym for. I think radical feminists are just far less tolerant of sexism, in all its forms, which happens to include the sexist appropriation & erasure that is the inevitable result of trans ideology.

I’m certainly not intending to attack radical feminists. All radical feminists are GC but not all GC are radical feminists. I feel like it’s important to make that distinction. I’m even not really criticizing GC, let alone all GC, really just asking a specific question.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm just saying asking whether transphobia exists is like asking if "femphobia" exists, it's ass-backwards. That's the short version.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not sure if I fully understand what you mean at least for the question I’m asking, but I get the you don’t feel like it’s a good question and feel like we should be focusing on the homophobia, lack of desistance, or whatever that creates people like me in your view.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Sure they exist, but medical transition still doesn't change sex.

Non-believer in gender is how I understood it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I guess I just wasn’t sure how the analogy made sense here because the question was about discrimination. Not believing in gender or that trans people can change sex doesn’t make medically transitioned people not exist to you. It totally doesn’t involve identities, just people who exist in the world. An atheist isn’t likely to encounter god, but someone who doesn’t believe in gender still might have to interact with a trans person.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

God is unproveable, just like gender is. Religion, like gender, is an identity, and everyone is free to have one, but nobody has to believe in it. If I as GC meet a medically transitioned transwoman, that person's gender is just their personal identity. Their surgeries don't make me believe in their identity over reality. To me they are a male who has modified their body. Disbelief in the ideology doesn't mean disbelief in those that believe the ideology lol. It's a pretty clear analogy imo..

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think I follow the analogy (still maybe confused on how it relates though). I guess I just don’t see how it answers the question. Is okay to discriminate against someone because they are medically transitioned person and you feel like medically transition people subscribe to an ideology which is bad?

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Oh, like other users in this thread, I don't think bullying or discrimination is okay. Basic human rights for all. I do resent if I'm forced to play along with their ideology and give up my actual rights for their ideals. But, this disbelief in their identity is not discrimination, just like an atheist who doesn't believe in religion doesn't necessarily discriminate against religious people.

That being said, I don't think it's unfair to keep transwomen and women separate, as we are different groups, and I don't think it's discrimination to do this. Some services in life are exclusive to certain groups with certain needs, and it's not discrimination to exclude those the services aren't meant for. Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity? It comes across to me that a lot of trans people talk about discrimination in the sense of people not believing their identities or not dating them, rather than not being afforded basic rights. The ability to adopt a child I would say is also not really a basic right, because no one is entitled to someone else's child, plus it ties in to wider debates of mental illness and informed consent. Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Tangentially, it's a bit funny to me because as a woman I am often discriminated against, but if I call out misogyny I'm dogpiled with 'not all men' etc. But if a trans person calls out transphobia, even for statements like 'sex is real', they get support and often the other person is cancelled. People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed? Strange world.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

I would agree. I feel like someone can completely not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic.

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity?

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic. I stated thinking about it related to the adoption question because I felt like if someone thought both sexes could be good parents and that homosexuals could be good parents, but they felt like a trans person shouldn’t be a parent just because they are trans then that seemed like transphobia to me. Also, to adopt, you are really vetted and screened so if someone was suffering from mental illness they wouldn’t be allowed to do it, so mental health wouldn’t be a concern either. It doesn’t mean anyone has a right to adopt or that someone wouldn’t be within their rights not to want to adopt to a trans person (literally any reason is valid), but it did seem like transphobia to me.

Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Totally agree. It’s really crazy. That’s why I’m trying to make this super narrow.

People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed?

Misogyny is like is a bad or worse now as I feel like as it’s ever been. Like so many left wing males love “trans rights” because they can viciously attack females and be seen as woke for doing it.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thank you, I appreciate your views and thoughts as well.

It's also refreshing to hear "you can not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic" because this is a rare sentiment. But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out? My best friend is schizophrenic. I've seen him in the depths of delusion, and it's very similar to how some trans people talk about gender. As such, I don't agree that pointing out delusional thoughts is discriminatory. Thinking you can change your sex by changing your appearance? Very sexist, and very delusional. I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male. Ok so finally I guess I only agree with the 'treating them badly' part then, which again goes back to basic human rights. No one owes anyone trust or validation.

I see trans people as any other person. Deserving of basic rights, but not deserving of special treatment for their internal identity, especially if this identity infringes on the rights that have been hard-won historically by my sex class.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing!

But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

How do you know that trans person supports gender? I understand that many do, but that doesn’t mean any individual trans person does. If you talk to them and they do support gender ideology then that would make sense to not want that, but I don’t think they have to go together.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out?

I feel like maybe you are talking about groups and I am talking about individuals. Trans people can totally be delusion, but does that mean that you’ve already judged that any trans person you meet is? That just seems transphobic to me.

I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male.

I didn’t say trusting them as you would a woman. If you don’t ever trust male people and you also never trust a male trans person, that seems totally consistent and not at all transphobic. If you consider male trans people uniquely untrustworthy amongst male people on account of them being trans, that seems transphobic.

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Would you be able to expand on trans people who don't have some belief in gender? I would say the majority of trans people believe in gender ideology. And those who don't, lets say who are gender critical and who think they have dysphoria not mismatched brain body sex, still have a lifestyle where they change their gender presentation to be treated as the opposite sex. That to me is complicit in gender ideology rather than critical. I don't really understand how someone could be trans and not believe in gender in some way, and I don't see how they don't go together, because transition doesn't change sex, it changes outward appearance and how people behave based on gender norms. Even dysphorics who transition tend to do so socially as well, not just physically. I guess I see it as playing inside the gender system instead of subverting it. I wouldn't want my kid to be raised by someone who might say the kid is trans if they are GNC or have body issues which all people have at some point or another.

To me, trans is a mental disorder with a component of delusion, either that sex is really changed, or that the body is wrong in some way. Am I anxious-phobic for thinking people with anxiety have an overactive stress response? You're right though, I'm talking on a macro scale. Sure, individual differences, some more delusional than others. I don't treat people badly for having mental afflictions, but that doesn't mean I can't assess the situation and conclude their state of mind based on behavior and actions.

Agreed with your last point, but precisely because women are taught to be vigilant about males, it's distressing to see males able to access our spaces based on self-id and wearing sexist attire. This adds a level of suspicion, depending on the situation. But yes in general I agree, I think anyone vigilant about transwomen comes from a place of vigilance towards all males, not just transwomen.

You know, you're absolutely correct that the disconnect here may be I'm talking group level and you're talking individual level. I do believe transphobia exists, but I also believe most of what people call transphobic is actually not, such as gender critical views, homosexuality based on sex not gender, vigilance for physical safety, etc. I know several trans friends irl and they are lovely individuals. I don't agree on many of their views, as they don't agree with mine. Yet we can still get along, because we don't let our differences occlude other things like personality and shared interests. That being said, I'm primarily concerned with the impact of trans ideology on the big picture of female, gay, and child rights, law, medicine, education, etc.