GC: Is anything transphobia?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

God is unproveable, just like gender is. Religion, like gender, is an identity, and everyone is free to have one, but nobody has to believe in it. If I as GC meet a medically transitioned transwoman, that person's gender is just their personal identity. Their surgeries don't make me believe in their identity over reality. To me they are a male who has modified their body. Disbelief in the ideology doesn't mean disbelief in those that believe the ideology lol. It's a pretty clear analogy imo..

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think I follow the analogy (still maybe confused on how it relates though). I guess I just don’t see how it answers the question. Is okay to discriminate against someone because they are medically transitioned person and you feel like medically transition people subscribe to an ideology which is bad?

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Oh, like other users in this thread, I don't think bullying or discrimination is okay. Basic human rights for all. I do resent if I'm forced to play along with their ideology and give up my actual rights for their ideals. But, this disbelief in their identity is not discrimination, just like an atheist who doesn't believe in religion doesn't necessarily discriminate against religious people.

That being said, I don't think it's unfair to keep transwomen and women separate, as we are different groups, and I don't think it's discrimination to do this. Some services in life are exclusive to certain groups with certain needs, and it's not discrimination to exclude those the services aren't meant for. Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity? It comes across to me that a lot of trans people talk about discrimination in the sense of people not believing their identities or not dating them, rather than not being afforded basic rights. The ability to adopt a child I would say is also not really a basic right, because no one is entitled to someone else's child, plus it ties in to wider debates of mental illness and informed consent. Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Tangentially, it's a bit funny to me because as a woman I am often discriminated against, but if I call out misogyny I'm dogpiled with 'not all men' etc. But if a trans person calls out transphobia, even for statements like 'sex is real', they get support and often the other person is cancelled. People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed? Strange world.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Wouldn't you agree, or do you think this is discrimination?

I would agree. I feel like someone can completely not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic.

About your overall question, could you clarify what do you consider discrimination on the basis of trans identity?

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic. I stated thinking about it related to the adoption question because I felt like if someone thought both sexes could be good parents and that homosexuals could be good parents, but they felt like a trans person shouldn’t be a parent just because they are trans then that seemed like transphobia to me. Also, to adopt, you are really vetted and screened so if someone was suffering from mental illness they wouldn’t be allowed to do it, so mental health wouldn’t be a concern either. It doesn’t mean anyone has a right to adopt or that someone wouldn’t be within their rights not to want to adopt to a trans person (literally any reason is valid), but it did seem like transphobia to me.

Overall the question of transphobia is always annoying to me, because the most innocuous things are considered 'transphobic' today.

Totally agree. It’s really crazy. That’s why I’m trying to make this super narrow.

People will always judge, it's in human nature to do so, so why is trans ideology so untouchable but discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed?

Misogyny is like is a bad or worse now as I feel like as it’s ever been. Like so many left wing males love “trans rights” because they can viciously attack females and be seen as woke for doing it.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thank you, I appreciate your views and thoughts as well.

It's also refreshing to hear "you can not support any gender stuff and not be transphobic" because this is a rare sentiment. But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel like if you treat people worse, do not trust them, think they are bad people, think they are delusional, etc. just because they are trans then that is transphobic.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out? My best friend is schizophrenic. I've seen him in the depths of delusion, and it's very similar to how some trans people talk about gender. As such, I don't agree that pointing out delusional thoughts is discriminatory. Thinking you can change your sex by changing your appearance? Very sexist, and very delusional. I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male. Ok so finally I guess I only agree with the 'treating them badly' part then, which again goes back to basic human rights. No one owes anyone trust or validation.

I see trans people as any other person. Deserving of basic rights, but not deserving of special treatment for their internal identity, especially if this identity infringes on the rights that have been hard-won historically by my sex class.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing!

But to tie it to your adoption example, if I don't support gender and don't want my baby raised by someone who does, then you say that's transphobic? These seem like conflicting views, but maybe I'm missing something.

How do you know that trans person supports gender? I understand that many do, but that doesn’t mean any individual trans person does. If you talk to them and they do support gender ideology then that would make sense to not want that, but I don’t think they have to go together.

I agree with you here but only in part. Particularly the 'delusional' aspect, because the majority of trans people I've interacted with have been delusional in some way. Is it discriminatory to point it out?

I feel like maybe you are talking about groups and I am talking about individuals. Trans people can totally be delusion, but does that mean that you’ve already judged that any trans person you meet is? That just seems transphobic to me.

I also think it's valid not to trust a transwoman as a woman, because I'll never blame a woman for not trusting a male.

I didn’t say trusting them as you would a woman. If you don’t ever trust male people and you also never trust a male trans person, that seems totally consistent and not at all transphobic. If you consider male trans people uniquely untrustworthy amongst male people on account of them being trans, that seems transphobic.

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Would you be able to expand on trans people who don't have some belief in gender? I would say the majority of trans people believe in gender ideology. And those who don't, lets say who are gender critical and who think they have dysphoria not mismatched brain body sex, still have a lifestyle where they change their gender presentation to be treated as the opposite sex. That to me is complicit in gender ideology rather than critical. I don't really understand how someone could be trans and not believe in gender in some way, and I don't see how they don't go together, because transition doesn't change sex, it changes outward appearance and how people behave based on gender norms. Even dysphorics who transition tend to do so socially as well, not just physically. I guess I see it as playing inside the gender system instead of subverting it. I wouldn't want my kid to be raised by someone who might say the kid is trans if they are GNC or have body issues which all people have at some point or another.

To me, trans is a mental disorder with a component of delusion, either that sex is really changed, or that the body is wrong in some way. Am I anxious-phobic for thinking people with anxiety have an overactive stress response? You're right though, I'm talking on a macro scale. Sure, individual differences, some more delusional than others. I don't treat people badly for having mental afflictions, but that doesn't mean I can't assess the situation and conclude their state of mind based on behavior and actions.

Agreed with your last point, but precisely because women are taught to be vigilant about males, it's distressing to see males able to access our spaces based on self-id and wearing sexist attire. This adds a level of suspicion, depending on the situation. But yes in general I agree, I think anyone vigilant about transwomen comes from a place of vigilance towards all males, not just transwomen.

You know, you're absolutely correct that the disconnect here may be I'm talking group level and you're talking individual level. I do believe transphobia exists, but I also believe most of what people call transphobic is actually not, such as gender critical views, homosexuality based on sex not gender, vigilance for physical safety, etc. I know several trans friends irl and they are lovely individuals. I don't agree on many of their views, as they don't agree with mine. Yet we can still get along, because we don't let our differences occlude other things like personality and shared interests. That being said, I'm primarily concerned with the impact of trans ideology on the big picture of female, gay, and child rights, law, medicine, education, etc.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Would you be able to expand on trans people who don't have some belief in gender?

I guess I’ll use myself here because obviously I know about that. So, I don’t believe in gender at this point. I did when I was a child and teenager because I felt like I was supposed to have been a girl because of how I was and how I felt about my body. As I got older, I starting meeting other trans people and many of them weren’t how I though they were, so I stopped being able to believe that we were all trapped in the wrong body. I had still made decisions though and found a way of living my life that worked for me. I tried not to think about the trans stuff and just focus living my life. I’m going to date myself by like most “transition” stuff for me was 20 years ago. I feel like I’ve grown a lot since then. I don’t believe I’m actually a woman (because I’m not), but I do occupy that role and it’s how people see me. It’s not subverting gender norms certainly to be how I am, but I’m not sure if it’s reinforcing them to any greater degree than anyone else in my social role since people can make the same judgements about me as actual women. I feel like if I actually told people I was trans more it would be worse from that standpoint because my behavior would be reinforcing more, since it would coming from a male person (if that makes sense).

I wouldn't want my kid to be raised by someone who might say the kid is trans if they are GNC or have body issues which all people have at some point or another.

I do want to say in this point that I feel like people like me would be the last ones want anyone. especially a child to transition. I actually know what this is and how damaging it is to so many people. I would push back if my child want to transition in some way and attempt to find the root of what that was because, I don’t think any of us are born with that being the only path where we could be happy and there are so many negative things about it. I’m sterile and I have no idea if the things that I did to my body as a young person and exogenous hormones, which I will have have to take for the rest of my life, have taken years of my life because it hasn’t really been studied much. This is not something anyone should want.

Sure, individual differences, some more delusional than others.

I guess, do you feel like all trans people are delusional? I don’t feel like I’m delusion, but if you think I am, I’d like to know why you think that. I promise I won’t be offended.

Agreed with your last point, but precisely because women are taught to be vigilant about males, it's distressing to see males able to access our spaces based on self-id and wearing sexist attire.

I completely agree with this. If obvious 40-something male walks into a women’s bathroom or other space in thigh high boots and mini skirt for example (and this totally does happen), that is totally deserving of extra vigilance and distrust beyond other males. It’s not transphobia so much as being rightfully uncomfortable with someone trying to act out a fetish in public.

I know several trans friends irl and they are lovely individuals. I don't agree on many of their views, as they don't agree with mine. Yet we can still get along, because we don't let our differences occlude other things like personality and shared interests. That being said, I'm primarily concerned with the impact of trans ideology on the big picture of female, gay, and child rights, law, medicine, education, etc.

I’m glad you are able to get along with people even if you disagree. Fighting against trans ideology is positive I feel like so I support what you are saying. I’ve really enjoying talking with you and thank so you much taking the time to do it and explain your thinking. 😊