Both: Disclosure around adoption

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think you should bring it up. My mom was adopted, but it was a closed adoption and she's never met her biological parents. Most adoptions these days are more open than that, from what I've read. If the birth mother finds out that you're trans at some point and feels betrayed, it could cause problems. Assuming your future child wants to meet his or her birth parents someday, it might cause strain between the two families. Seems like a potentially harmful thing to keep secret.

As for whether the birth mother has a right to know, well, I guess there can be differing opinions on that. If I were in the birth mom's position, I would want to know. I don't think it's a matter of legality, but I would still want to have that information. I'm not sure if it would affect my decision or not. I think the future parents' politics would factor into things more than trans status. I'd be devastated, for example, if I had a daughter who turned out to be GNC like me and gave to her to be raised by people who transitioned her as a child.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think it's a matter of legality, but I would still want to have that information.

I think that it definitely is matter of legality, if not by the letter of the law as it currently stands in most states then certainly by the intent. Laws around adoption are very strict over matters such as informed consent, good faith and fraud. Biological parents are prohibited from lying by omission and commission about a vast array of things to prospective adoptive parents, and the prospective adoptive parents aren't allowed to lie to the biological parents about relevant matters either.

I suspect that most state laws have not yet added specific prohibitions saying that an adoptive parents can't lie about their natal sex coz it hasn't happened yet. And coz legislators never anticipated that there'd come a time when adoption might be sought by two males in a same-sex relationship who have agreed to create and perpetuate the illusion that one of them is female and that therefore they are in a heterosexual M-F relationship rather than a homosexual M-M one. Nor, of course, until now no lawmakers - nor anyone else - has anticipated that in such a scenario, the two males might decide between themselves - and with the collusion of a social worker - that the best tack is to try to hoodwink a pregnant girl/woman into believing that they are a heterosexual M-F couple rather than a homosexual M-M one coz they think doing so will increase their chances of being selected by the woman as the adoptive parents for her child.

Given that in family law, including adoption law, "the best interests of the child" and "informed consent" are of paramount importance, I think in this particular scenario, the courts and relevant state agencies would not find in the OP's favor.

Everyone who's watched "Catfishing" knows how reprehensible and often harmful it is to lie about your sex and create an illusory persona online to sucker individuals into romance/intimacy when the parties never meet IRL. I think a lot of jurists and the general public will see this sort of deception as even worse when it's done face to face IRL - and for the purpose of obtaining someone else's baby.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, I don't know much about adoption laws. It sounds like it's more complicated today than it was in the 70s when my mom was adopted. I can see how trans status might be construed as a matter of informed consent, but once an adoption is completed, after a certain amount of time, it can't be undone even if the birth mom is unhappy.

That's why I think it's important to tell the birth mom prior so it doesn't turn into a huge issue. That would just cause stress for both families and eventually also for the child.

Transsexuals have been around a long time. It's hardly a new thing that a couple where one partner is transsexual might adopt. I'm sure there have been plenty of others. There are probably some public examples if you search for them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It sounds like it's more complicated today than it was in the 70s when my mom was adopted.

Yes, it certainly is more complicated today than half a century ago. Adoption law and family law more generally have changed a great deal.

I can see how trans status might be construed as a matter of informed consent, but once an adoption is completed, after a certain amount of time, it can't be undone even if the birth mom is unhappy.

Not necessarily true. If a birth parent finds out an adoptive parent committed fraud during the adoption process, most states will step in.

Also, despite the way OP has framed this, the issue of consent doesn't just pertain to "the birth mom." The biological father also has to consent to the adoption and he too must relinquish his parental rights.

Transsexuals have been around a long time. It's hardly a new thing that a couple where one partner is transsexual might adopt.

Yes, transsexuals have been around for a long time - though in the several decades after Christine Jorgensen, they were still extremely rare. But I'm not sure that a lot of them tried to adopt. Many of the biggest-name transsexuals from the 1970s - Jan Morris, Renee Richards - and from later eras went trans after being married to women and fathering children. Morris, who "transtioned" in 1972, had five kids already. Always the majority of "transsexuals" have been heterosexual AGPs, and historically nearly all of them fathered children prior to transitioning.

I don't think it's true that many homosexual male transsexuals over time tried to adopt. Coz homosexual adoption has only become legal in most jurisdictions in the last 10-20 years.

Moreover, the way the law has evolved, the first homosexuals who got the right to adopt were individuals adopting the biological children their current partners had during a previous relationship - or who were lesbians whose partner had given birth to a child (usually through anonymous sperm donation) during the time frame of their own relationship.

Adoption of another entirely unrelated person's child by two childless lesbians or by two gay men is a much more recent development than transsexualism is, and actually is pretty rare. I am friends with one of the first gay male couples in the state of NY in the USA to adopt an infant to whom they were not related - which happened only in the mid 1990s (1997, I think). And a main reason they were allowed to adopt is coz they were willing to take a premature, low birthweight child of minority race who did not score well on the APGAR whose parents were both drug addicts and whose mother had used crack, heroin and meth during the pregnancy.

The rarity and difficulty of adoption of unrelated children, particularly infants, by male gay couples is of the reasons that gay men today are so heavily invested in pushing for normalization of commercial surrogacy, and relaxation of rules and laws around it. Commercial surrogacy enables gay men to obtain babies without going through the checks and adhering to the safeguards involved in legal adoption.

The core issue that OP has raised is not really whether transsexuals should be able to adopt. Although that is a topic worth looking into. It's much more specific than that. The issue that OP has raised is: when a male homosexual transsexual and his male partner seek to adopt an infant, is it OK for them to conceal from the biological mother both the sex of the transsexual partner (the potential adoptive "mother") as well as the true nature of the two males' relationship - meaning the fact that they are actually in a male-male homosexual marriage, not in a female-male heterosexual one as they are feigning. The concern here is not with homosexuality or even transsexuality, it's with honesty and transparency.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not necessarily true. If a birth parent finds out an adoptive parent committed fraud during the adoption process, most states will step in.

Really, even 5 or 10 years later? I don't know what a judge would do if trans status were withheld from biological parents, but I sure wouldn't want u/peakingatthemoment or anyone else to take the chance of it causing a huge problem down the road.

The concern here is not with homosexuality or even transsexuality, it's with honesty and transparency.

I agree, even though I don't really consider a male-to-female transsexual to be a gay man. I mean, I know technically peaking is a homosexual male (and she would agree), but it would be hard to think of her a gay man, given the lengths she's gone to to transition, including sex reassignment surgery. I don't think most potential birth mothers would think of her as a gay man either, but they still need to weigh how they feel about transsexuality and whether it would impact their decision to place their child for adoption with a particular couple.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said "most states will step in," not that a judge or panel of judges would necessarily overturn the adoption.

But my hunch is, if either the biological mother or father went to court and said we were not told this important information and therefore adoption fraud occurred, the state would have to take it seriously and go through all the procedures stipulated by law. The state might very well require new investigations into the home life of the adoptive couple, the child's mental and physical wellbeing, and psychological assessments of the adoptive parents.

What to do about the child would probably be left largely for the bio parents to decide, though the state agencies involved would weigh in. If the child was doing well and seemed happy and all seemed OK in the adoptive home, I can't imagine anyone involved would argue the child should be removed from the home. But I imagine that at the very least the adoptive parents would get slapped on the wrist or sanctioned, perhaps fined.

States are very nosy and aggressive in this sort of situation. A state would want to set a legal precedent to make it very clear to future adoptive parents that in the adoption process, neither the bio parents nor the adoptive ones can commit fraud. It would be a test case.

My point is, OP tread carefully here. Please you and your husband take care not do anything that could jeopardize your position or to open yourselves up to charges of deception, fraud and bad faith.

BTW, there were a number of prominent US cases in the 1980s and 1990s where adoptions were overturned - not after 5 or 10 years - but when the kid was 3 or 4. And there was the famous case of Elian Gonzalez, who was returned to his father in Cuba when he was 7, I think that was his age.

There was also a famous case where the wife of a man in New Jersey took their young son to Brazil, her home country, for a visit when he was quite little, and she never returned. She stayed in Brazil and divorced her American husband, then married a Brazilian bigwig from a very rich powerful family there. The Brazilian courts allowed the new husband to adopt the child, even though his father in the US was trying to get the child back. Then the mother suddenly died. The Brazilian courts kept ruling in favor of the Brazilian man, saying he was the legal father and the boy's actual father, the American guy, had no standing. The boy's name was changed, he learnt Portuguese, went to a posh Brazilian school and thrived as he grew up... In the end, the boy was finally returned to his father in the US when he was 12-13. It was a heartbreaking case. I don't know how it turned out. I imagine the boy is in his 20s now.

There also was a famous case in the 1990s where two women at the same IVF clinic thought they'd each been implanted with embryos made from their own eggs and their husbands' sperm. When a couple of years later one of the kids was found to have a recessive genetic condition that his parents had already been tested for and knew they didn't carry, the clinic had to do an investigation to find out what happened. Turns out, the two women's embryos had gotten switched in the lab. After all the legal wrangling and court proceedings, the state gave custody of the two boys to their biological parents, and the two fathers in the case just wanted to swap the kids like trading cards. The women - each of whom had gestated, birthed, breastfed, and raised each other's biological son - couldn't do it. They became friends and decided the best option was to keep the kids with the parents they were already with but to buy houses next door to each other and to raise the two boys side by side with the involvement of all four parents and so the boys would have daily contact with both mothers. I dunno how it turned out in the long run, but it was a good Lifetime movie with Melissa Gilbert.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I remember you saying that your mother was adopted. I’m glad adoption is more open now. We expect to have a relationship with the birth mother and want our child to have a relationship with her too. That said, I have many long-term relationships with people who don’t know I’m trans so it doesn’t feel from my perspective like that is something to be concerned about. Do you think not disclosing it indefinitely would cause strain or are you mainly referring to her being upset if it came out later?

I understand what you mean about politics being important. Do worry when I hear about those situations where a parent transitions and then a kid does. I’ve never heard of it with a trans adoptive parent, but grooming can be a legitimate concern. I know that I’m not like that. If anything, I’d be very, very against it do to knowing what I know, but obviously some trans people do want others to be like that. It’s child abuse, plain and simple.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Mainly that she would be upset if she learned about it later. I remember we discussed adoption before, and you said you and your partner were going to be open with your child. Kids are bad at keeping secrets. What happens if the birth mom finds out you're trans because of something your child says and is upset? It's possible she could be religious or conservative and that's why she's choosing adoption instead of abortion.

Of course it's also possible she could be very pro-trans. I'd ask her what she thinks about same-sex parents. If she would consider choosing two dads to adopt her child. If she says she wouldn't, then I think it would be unfair to keep that knowledge from her. Full disclosure is probably best either way. This is a huge life decision she's making. If it were a closed adoption, that's one thing, but selecting parents means that she should know everything relevant to select them. Maybe she really wants her daughter, if it's a girl, to have a mom she can talk to about female puberty.

I know that I’m not like that. If anything, I’d be very, very against it do to knowing what I know, but obviously some trans people do want others to be like that. It’s child abuse, plain and simple.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't be worried about you in that department. Actually I wasn't even really thinking of transgender parents doing that. I suppose they could, but it seems way more likely that non-trans parents would be gung ho about transitioning a child. I wouldn't want to choose parents for my kid that are pro-child transition or way into liberal feminism. I just would want a safe home where my child could grow to adulthood and be taught good values.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Mainly that she would be upset if she learned about it later. I remember we discussed adoption before, and you said you and your partner were going to be open with your child. Kids are bad at keeping secrets. What happens if the birth mom finds out you're trans because of something your child says and is upset?

This is a good point. We are still planning on being honest about my history (when he or she is old enough to understand). We would never ask our child to keep it secret either.

I feel like if we told the birth mother, we’d want to do it after she had gotten to know us a little. I’m not sure if it’s something you lead with, but that could me own discomfort about it. It’s so easy so just tell someone you can’t have children and they will fill in an explanation in their mind. It’s not even dishonest per say, but maybe it is misleading because you know people aren’t assuming the right reason.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, I don't think you need to necessarily mention it on the first visit. Let her get to know you first. And then at some point bring it up.

We are still planning on being honest about my history (when he or she is old enough to understand). We would never ask our child to keep it secret either.

Not like I have a whole lot of personal experience with this, but I'd just be open from the very beginning. That way you never have to decide when the right time to tell the child is. I know my mom always knew she was adopted. My grandparents didn't wait until a certain age to tell her. It would probably makes sense to do the same thing regarding you being trans. Just mention it casually. Maybe make a photo album for your life story and tell or show the story to your child so he or she just grows up knowing it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not like I have a whole lot of personal experience with this, but I'd just be open from the very beginning. That way you never have to decide when the right time to tell the child is.

I don’t think we’d ever not be honest about it. I do feel like it would be difficult to explain at too young ages though.

Maybe make a photo album for your life story and tell or show the story to your child so he or she just grows up knowing it.

This is an interesting idea! I don’t really have photos from when I was a child. My family has some I’m sure, but they sort of disappeared from view during my teens because I think my parents felt weird displaying them. I may think about doing this. I already have been scrapbooking the adoption process. Craft projects are fun!

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't get into the nitty gritty of dysphoria with a young child, but maybe something like "When Mommy was little, she was a boy. When she grew up, she was unhappy and decided to live her life as a woman."

Remember little kids don't have any concept of what's normal and what's not normal. For them, their mother having been a boy once upon a time is normal until they're taught otherwise by society.

I already have been scrapbooking the adoption process. Craft projects are fun!

I had another idea. You know you can also make personalized books, either with photos or illustrations. You could create and print your own or go to a website to order one. There are lots of options.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We are still planning on being honest about my history (when he or she is old enough to understand). We would never ask our child to keep it secret either.

Glad to hear you aren't planning on asking the child to keep your history and sex a secret (though given the power differential between parents and children, parents "asking" young children is essentially the same as "telling" or "commanding" and "coercing" them).

At what age do you think a child will be "old enough to understand"?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have many long-term relationships with people who don’t know I’m trans so it doesn’t feel from my perspective like that is something to be concerned about.

Are these legal relationships involving just you and those people directly, or do they involve the minor children of those people too? Are these relationships governed by contracts which you and the other persons signed and were filed with, and had to be approved by, state authorities and finally approved by a judge? Are these relationships subject to state laws, rules and regulations the way adoptions are?