Both: Disclosure around adoption

MarkTwainiac · 2021-01-21T03:31:34+00:00

The social worker doesn’t think I need to share details about why we can’t have children ourselves with the birth Mom.

I agree that there's no need to tell a pregnant girl or woman who is considering allowing you (and others) to adopt and raise her unborn child why you and your partner can't have children yourselves. That's my position regarding all adoptive couples and individuals, trans or otherwise. The specific reason a person or couple might be infertile, sterile or elect not to reproduce isn't germane.

However, it should also be noted that not all people who adopt do so coz they are unable to have children themselves. Many adoptive parents have biological children, too - some before they decide to adopt.

But I don't agree it's a good idea - or ethical - for any prospective adoptive parents to withhold from a girl/woman in such a situation any pertinent, indeed key, information about the kind of family, household, social environment and belief system that her unborn child will be raised in. Moreover, I think in nearly every state, doing this also wouldn't be legal.

You seem naively unaware that if you intentionally withhold information as basic - and relevant to childrearing - as the fact of your sex from a woman whose child you later end up adopting because you decided that telling her the truth might cause her not to want to place her child with you, it could get you into a world of legal trouble and emotional hurt.

I suggest that rather than take advice from your social worker here that you consult some attorneys who are expert in evolving areas of adoption law. And who do not work for adoption agencies or are in any other way involved in the baby brokering business.

Each state has a specific timeframe in which the (birth) parent can revoke consent to an adoption. In some states, this is as few as three days and other states allow one year or until the child reaches a certain age. There are exceptions to the general guidelines depending on how the adoption was processed.

Even if this time limit has passed, consent can be revoked in some situations. One exception is if the consent was based on duress or fraud. If this is the case, the consent is null and void. Consent requires a voluntary relinquishment of rights.

What's more, consent requires being fully informed of all the relevant facts. It's not just "bad faith" for adoptive parents and biological parents alike to lie by omission in a legal adoption, it's fraud. What's more, the fraud on the part of the adoptive parents against biological parents in this scenario would be fraud undertaken for the specific purpose of obtaining somebody else's baby. That's not a "good look." It won't play well in the courts, or in the press.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/can-i-reverse-an-adoption-36875

(Or am I just overthinking it all lol)

I don't think you are overthinking this topic at all. On the contrary, I believe you are way underthinking it.

Edit: My partner is also in the “don’t bring it up” camp fwiw and he has some say in this too.

I understand not bringing up your sex and trans history the first time - perhaps even the first few times - you meet a girl/woman who is considering whether you and your partner might be suitable candidates to adopt and raise her unborn child. But if your partner means "don't bring it up" ever, that to me is a huge red flag.

Houseplant · 2021-01-20T22:12:40+00:00

I’d want to know more about whether or not the person is agp or not, and whether the child will be raised to believe in gender as a sacred unquestionable identity.

It’s so dependent on the motivations of the person. Is it a male who is going to “chest feed” the infant? I’d veto that second. Is it a male who just got slapped with a genuine distress with his sex and is a normal person but with breast implants and a pseudovagina? They’re likely no more dangerous to the child than any other male.

futureghost · 2021-01-20T04:51:17+00:00

Finding out someone is trans indicates to me that they are essentially a follower of the religion of gender identity, which has proven to be misogynistic and homophobic time and time again. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, as there are trans people who are simply trying to alleviate gender dysphoria by transitioning and don't claim to have an innate gender essence, but in my experience, these people are the exception to the rule.

All this to say: If you feel like you'd be placing your child (especially if female) into a potentially harmful, misogynistic environment that enforces ideas like lady brains (as one example out of many), declining to allow a trans person to adopt your child isn't necessarily transphobic anymore than declining to allow a Mormon to adopt your child would be bigoted towards Mormons.

Edit: changed a word

Edit 2: I wanted to add that I remember you from the old debate subreddit and I don't think you're misogynistic or homophobic. I gave more of a general answer to what seemed like an interesting thought experiment.

MarkTwainiac · 2021-01-21T19:12:00+00:00

This also feels like one a few times where, if a birth Mom didn’t want to place with us because of me being trans, it might actually be transphobia (or homophobia?) rather than something else.

Seems it hasn't occurred to you that some of the pregnant girls/women looking for adoptive parents you will encounter might themselves be lesbians, "trans" or bisexual. Indeed, some might be into extreme gender ideology 2021-style, and therefore might think your description of yourself in your flair - "Transsexual (natal male), HSTS" - means you are "truscum" and the real transphobe here, perhaps even an evil Blanchardian,LOL.

Seriously, though, I am sorry to have to let you know this, but a lot of people - including many gay men, lesbians and bisexuals - think that transsexualism and transgenderism are rooted not just in regressive sexism, but in extreme homophobia. Some of the pregnant girls/women you meet in the adoption process might see you and your partner as the homophobic ones for being in a same-sex male-on-male relationship where one of you wants to be seen as the opposite sex and the other one has decided to play along.

I imagine a lot of pregnant girls/women who would not have any problem allowing their child to be adopted and raised by a lesbian or gay male couple where the parties were all "out and proud" about who they are might have problems with allowing their child to be adopted by a gay male couple where one partner is concealing his sex and both partners are hiding the true nature of their relationship. Nowadays most reasonable people realize that parental homosexuality won't harm a child, but parental denial of reality sure can and most likely will.

Also, many people are of the opinion, and with good reason, that even when what's going on between the two partners in a couple or marriage falls short of meeting the clinical criteria for a folie à deux, it's really not healthy for children to grow up in a household were the parents have made a pact to put on an act, or for one to enable the other's illusions and pretenses. There is a vast literature on this that comes from the experiences of persons who were raised by alcoholics, drug addicts, fantasists, con artists, habitual liars and others adults who were caught up in spinning fantasies and creating illusions about themselves and their lives and who were vigilant about keeping reality at bay lest it "burst their bubble." The long and short of it is, being raised by adults whose feet aren't firmly on the ground, so to speak, is not good for children. It might be interesting and exciting, and sometimes fun, for the kids - but it's not healthy for them.

Some books I highly recommend you read that might open your eyes to the downsides of growing up with parents or other parental figures who are in denial of reality are the excellent memoirs, The Glass Castle, The Duke of Deception and Running With Scissors.

worried19 · 2021-01-20T06:14:09+00:00

I think you should bring it up. My mom was adopted, but it was a closed adoption and she's never met her biological parents. Most adoptions these days are more open than that, from what I've read. If the birth mother finds out that you're trans at some point and feels betrayed, it could cause problems. Assuming your future child wants to meet his or her birth parents someday, it might cause strain between the two families. Seems like a potentially harmful thing to keep secret.

As for whether the birth mother has a right to know, well, I guess there can be differing opinions on that. If I were in the birth mom's position, I would want to know. I don't think it's a matter of legality, but I would still want to have that information. I'm not sure if it would affect my decision or not. I think the future parents' politics would factor into things more than trans status. I'd be devastated, for example, if I had a daughter who turned out to be GNC like me and gave to her to be raised by people who transitioned her as a child.

comradeconradical · 2021-01-22T07:11:50+00:00

The social worker doesn’t think I need to share details about why we can’t have children ourselves with the birth Mom.

Agreed, for medical issues that doesn't affect your lifestyle, unless it does like active cancer in which case yeah I think it should be disclosed. Infertility exists outside of ideology. People can be sterile, infertile, or unable to conceive for all sorts of reasons. These reasons are usually rooted in physical states, unlike transition which is both medical, mental, and ideological.

Should you tell a potential birth mother you are trans?

Yes. She should have all the knowledge available about the life of the adoptive parents to determine if it's a good fit, particularly if she will remain in contact with them. Like another person said, trans people often follow gender ideology which is just that, an ideology, that some may disagree with. Is it transphobic? I don't think so, though I see how it could be debatable, but disagreeing with an ideology doesn't automatically make you hateful or phobic of it. If it was, most people I know would be Trump-phobic lol, but that's not the wording we use for those critical of this political angle. And even then, if a super left wing mom was in a situation where she had to give her child up for adoption for whatever reason, is it so wrong that she doesn't want her kid placed in a super right wing family? Another user commented about religion which is an even better example. Another example would be adoptive parents who have mental illness, such as BPD or schizophrenia, etc. I think most people would agree that they'd want to know of the mental state and beliefs of the adoptive parents, because this will affect their child's upbringing in a way that the root of the adoptive parent's infertility typically won't, unless it's an ongoing physical illness like I mentioned above.

In my view, the trans identity is more than a physical medical state, it's a lifestyle and an ideology, and (again in my view) a mental ailment consisting of gender dysphoria and other comorbidities (you reject this anecdotally but the studies show high comorbidities of mental illness so I think many would consider it a valid concern). I think these are important aspects for parents looking to give their child for adoption to consider, especially if they want a relationship with the birth parents. Deception is never well received. It's a matter of informed consent.

Adoption however is a tricky topic especially because it occurs for a multitude of reasons. The way I interpreted your question and framed my response is from someone who is willingly giving up their kid because they have to, and who wants the best and most stable life for their kid possible. This is obviously not the case for any or even most adoptions, and in many cases the birth parents may not know about the adoptive family at all and vice versa. But, if there is open communication between the parties, I think this is a relevant detail. Further, adoption is in the child's best interests, and I think again informed consent is ultimately in the chil'sd and the involved families' best interests.

Some things don't need to be disclosed, some do. I'm of the opinion that this is a detail that should be disclosed.

divingrightintowork · 2021-01-27T15:38:21+00:00

This is really complicated - like ethically it isn't bad to bring it up, but pragmatically you've indicated that it's not entirely relevant - but still.

This is complicated - IDK this is so far from what I could imagine doing and context matters - I'd skew towards bringing it up if relevant, and not going to lengths to avoid it.

Like again I don't know the details of how this works, if the mother asks "WHat did it feel like discovering you were infertile?" liek DON'T LIE. IDK I guess just be like "Oh, I'm trans, I gave up my fertility to help with my gender dysphoria and live as a woman," just completely nonchalantly.

So I guess that's where I'd go - you don't need to front load it necc but do not under any circumstances lie or go to great lengths to avoid it.

kwallio · 2021-01-21T08:24:42+00:00

I don't think trans people should be adopting because I don't think trans people are mentally healthy. You should retract your application and get a fucking dog instead.

Airbus320 · 2021-01-22T19:40:53+00:00

GCdebatesQT

MODERATORS